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Me and the drummer of the band i play in, who is also the vocalist in another band, had a crazy idea last night........ how come nobody makes VOCAL pedal's? yes yes i know tc electronics and a few others have digital stuff and there are alot of horrible vocal multi effects, but nobody builds individual pedal's WITH xlr jacks DESIGNED for vocals. We have experimented countless times with guitar effects pedals and xlr to 1/4 cables and "i can't get no satisfaction".... So we had the idea of making purpose built pedals (dirt, modulation, and def time based) with xlr in and out, that are purpose built to be used with vocals, and designed to be easily put on a pedal board for ease of use live. This would allow the vocalist more control especially when playing at a place with out a good p.a. and also allow guitarist / vocalists (such as myself) more tonal options and controls for vocals when playing live. I can't count how many time's i've asked a seemingly decent sound guy to add delay and reverb to my voice, and their like uhhhhhh i don't know how to do that, with this idea i can just say make it loud and clean i will handle the rest, maybe i'm just a control freak....
So any builders out there willing to tackle this idea? I would be looking to start with custom one off's of dirt, delay, and reverb. I'd want xlr in and out's, 9v adapters, true bypass, and your typical footswitch's. Tone wise I'm looking for spacey and psychedelic for delay and reverb, and as far as dirt more like an overdrive / torn speaker style effect with low to medium gain.
Iommic Pope wrote:
Skip, you rule. You hate people so much, you're willing to discredit all human progress, its awesome.
1) if the sound guy cant give you reverb than he is not a sound guy period. 2) if I was a sound guy and you stepped on a vocal pedal (especially dirt) it would seriously piss me off that the levels are all wrong and you didn't clear it with me first. 3) xlr out suggests balanced output but a lot of smaller cheaper boards have no balanced inputs at all. you would be fucked %50 of the time. you might want emulated mic out so you can plug into the stage snake/box or the xlr on the wall and the sound guy doesnt have to rewire shit. unbalanced 1/4 line level is probably way cheaper and simpler. 4) the cost of a one-off hand made mic pre, dirt, reverb, delay, balanced and unbalanced outs would be $200 or more. even if it was dirt only. cant compete with TC on price 5) a good sound guy can get your torn peaker sound from the gear he has or just use impedance transformers to run your signal send and return from the board to your pedal that you give him. lets be honest, any sound guy can get you distortion its just gain hitting headroom and they all know that.
one way to make the sound guy less pissed off is to have individual outputs and true bypass. do a sound check for clean and a sound check for dirty. you can still switch it from the stage. if you the pedal is buffered bypass with separate dry and wet outs on all the time, you just let the sound guy mix your clean and dirty. you need to tell him what songs and where.
eatyourguitar wrote:3) xlr out suggests balanced output but a lot of smaller cheaper boards have no balanced inputs at all. you would be fucked %50 of the time. you might want emulated mic out so you can plug into the stage snake/box or the xlr on the wall and the sound guy doesnt have to rewire shit. unbalanced 1/4 line level is probably way cheaper and simpler.
I was just thinking that maybe the old XLR>1/4" adapters would be a better way to go to use pedals with a mic?
Disclaimer #1: Co-Founder, Product Developer at Function f(x).
eatyourguitar wrote:1) if the sound guy cant give you reverb than he is not a sound guy period.
Welcome to DIY touring and playing small bar/club shows....... If i played clubs with actual sound men and an even semi decent P.A. on any kind of regular basis i wouldnt need these pedals.... I'm a recording / live sound engineer myself (I spent alot of money on my education and unfortunately hold high standards on sound men or i get frustrated), i'm fully aware of what would happen if i kicked on the dirt on vocals, thats why you have a wet/dry blend knob and and output control to even it out ,and before every gig i always talk to who ever is running sound to inform them of what i have going on, waiting till your on stage to lay it on him is unprofessional in my book. The main reason i want to the pedals is so i can replicate my vocal tone consistantly much like using the same guitar gear at every gig, plus most of the time even if i can get effects on my vocals i only get one choice reverb or delay and even then when i tell them i want more repeats and less delay time they stare at me blankly, i don't want to sound cocky but there are alot of stupid/stubborn/lazy sound guys in the bar scene/small club scene so the way i see it the less i have to rely on them and more on myself the happier i will be with the outcome.
culturejam wrote:I was just thinking that maybe the old XLR>1/4" adapters would be a better way to go to use pedals with a mic?
The reason i want xlr in / out is so that im not switching the signal from balanced to unbalanced, i've tried the cables that are xlr to 1/4, and i've tried the actual metal adapters you plug your xlr into to convert it to 1/4 and i almost always notice volume drop, hum and and other little issues when compared to just running it straight into the board.
This was really just a crazy idea and territory i felt had been untouched since it looks like tc helicon pedals is the only company really doing it, i was kinda hoping some random builder would like the idea and work with me on it.
Iommic Pope wrote:
Skip, you rule. You hate people so much, you're willing to discredit all human progress, its awesome.
it seems like you have given it a lot of thought and you do know what you are talking about. I might be able to get into that. I cant say for sure if I can do it. I have a lot of custom work and prototype projects lined up. I would not want to waste your time if I cant get to it right away. having a blend and a level control sounds good. alternatively, you could have a dry level and a wet level and its still only 2 knobs. emulated mic out can be done with a pad on an unbalanced signal. impedance might be a small concern but we are designing from the ground up so we can make the impedance anything we want.
That's cool man and i do really appreciate your input, i was thinking the blend knob and overall output level knob so you could get the tone you want out of the blend knob and then adjust the output level to match the level of the mic with the effect off, i feel having 2 seperate output controls might make it harder to balance the effect on level to the effect off level. I'm in no rush for this project at all, we are getting ready to record a 12 song full length so we arent playing many shows till next spring. I just would like some variety, since only tc helicon makes pedals that i have found it's like walking into a gutiar store asking to see fuzz pedals and they say all they have is a big muff and nobody makes anything else. Nobody around here carries the tc helicon pedals so im afraid to pull the trigger and not like them but at only 120 bucks each i might just get one to try first since the main thing i want is delay since I use it on our e.p and will be using alot more of it on our full length. If the delay has what the boss delay i currently use doesnt then i might spring for the others, but this could be a good idea for custom pedal builders, why just limit yourself to guitar and bass when i know a bunch of vocalists that would love to have a bunch of pedals to choose from and they usually have more free money since their not buying thousands of dollars in amps/cabinets/etc just 100 bucks on an sm58 and a couple hundred bucks on the cheapest p.a. they can get away with.
Iommic Pope wrote:
Skip, you rule. You hate people so much, you're willing to discredit all human progress, its awesome.
digitech are competing with TC on vocal pedals and they make very similar products at similar prices. with the cheap TC stuff ($200 ish) you only get delay for example. the more expensive ones have every effect you can think of while keeping it in a stomp box just under $500. on the $500 units I think TC has better harmonizers but digitech has more crazy effects like EQ>compressor>bit crusher>delay saved as a preset called alien speak or something. the Elvis preset is hilarious.
I cringe everytime i hear the name digitech......... it's like Line6 to alot of people. All i can think of is my old rp7 and learning how to play Korn's blind way before follow the leader came out..... those were sad dark days..... but anyways I'm not really looking for a whole multi effects unit when i all i really want is disortion>delay>reverb now if i had a 3 switch stompbox that had just those three in it that would be rad, the multi effects are too much for me. I'm really thinking of trying the tc helicon stuff if it doesnt work out then i'll be back on here hounding people. Since i do all the recording for the band i know exactly what i use on my vox and i really just want to be able to somewhat replicate it live so people can identify it with the record.
Iommic Pope wrote:
Skip, you rule. You hate people so much, you're willing to discredit all human progress, its awesome.
There are pretty useful ICS for converting balanced to unbalanced and vice versa. I used INA217 (UN to BAL) and DRV114 (BAL to UN) from TI to make some utility boxes for the exact reason the OP is inquiring. I just put an effects loop inbetween the 2 ics and voila you have a a Balanced effects board using all unbalanced effects. And of course include an unbalanced and balanced out since you have both (signal before DRV114 and after).
its basiacally:
Mic->Balanced input->balanced to unbalnced converter->send of loop->[alll your effects]->return of loop->take out from here or(unbalanced)->unbalanced to balanced converter->take out from here (balanced)
The whole thing is about 20 parts with a built in split supply and you can add gain if you want at the conversion stages. Analog devices makes similar chips but at the time i built these were much more expensive and seemed to have more or less identical specs.
smallsnd/bigsnd wrote:sing through an amp. DONE. ;-)
That is actually the solution we have found, the drummer in the band i play in also sings for a band called LORD. He did exactly this at the Stoner Hands of Doom Festival. He ran his mic and analog synth's into a mixer then through guitar effects and out an old marshall combo which he then had mic'd as the lead vocal.
multi_s wrote:There are pretty useful ICS for converting balanced to unbalanced and vice versa. I used INA217 (UN to BAL) and DRV114 (BAL to UN) from TI to make some utility boxes for the exact reason the OP is inquiring. I just put an effects loop inbetween the 2 ics and voila you have a a Balanced effects board using all unbalanced effects. And of course include an unbalanced and balanced out since you have both (signal before DRV114 and after).
its basiacally:
Mic->Balanced input->balanced to unbalnced converter->send of loop->[alll your effects]->return of loop->take out from here or(unbalanced)->unbalanced to balanced converter->take out from here (balanced)
The whole thing is about 20 parts with a built in split supply and you can add gain if you want at the conversion stages. Analog devices makes similar chips but at the time i built these were much more expensive and seemed to have more or less identical specs.
I really like the idea of having both outputs atleast on the pedal that is at the end of the effects chain, this would allow sending the signal to the sound board and to an amp at the same time. Then you could run guitar effects pedal's through the amp's effects loop to mangle and destroy the sound if you were looking for said sound, while still having your main vocal come through clean. Or if your playing at a really shitty house show and had to run your vocals through a guitar amp you could still use all of your effects. As far as your technical jargon i'm lost.... I think it may be worth my while to try and take a few pedal building classes, even if i never build a pedal it would be nice to know how to repair them and how they work as i am very much a DIYer if possible .
Iommic Pope wrote:
Skip, you rule. You hate people so much, you're willing to discredit all human progress, its awesome.
smallsnd/bigsnd wrote:small mixer with XLR ins/outs and use the effects send/return for the pedals? i'm thinking simple here...
ya that is basically it.
Ancient Astronaught wrote:I really like the idea of having both outputs atleast on the pedal that is at the end of the effects chain, this would allow sending the signal to the sound board and to an amp at the same time. Then you could run guitar effects pedal's through the amp's effects loop to mangle and destroy the sound if you were looking for said sound, while still having your main vocal come through clean. Or if your playing at a really shitty house show and had to run your vocals through a guitar amp you could still use all of your effects. As far as your technical jargon i'm lost.... I think it may be worth my while to try and take a few pedal building classes, even if i never build a pedal it would be nice to know how to repair them and how they work as i am very much a DIYer if possible .
i dont mean to be over technical. an IC is a chip, black thing with legs. Suffice to say there are some out there built for this exact application. Chips have funny names that often don't give much meaningful information.
so you have your mic which is balanced, you put that signal into the first magical chip and out comes an unbalanced version, maybe with some boost if you want. THen you take that signal and stick it on a 1/4 jack. Put a patch cable from that to your effects. Take the output of your last effect and stick it into this other 1/4 jack you would have and that signal goes to the other magical chip that converts it to balanced. Send that to an XLR. Also have another 1/4 that is just the signal coming back from the pedal chain. Its like making a wrapper for your effects chain that changes the ins and outs to balanced.
sm/bs is right too that the exact same thing could be done with a mixer that has an effects loop and balanced ins/outs.
Last edited by multi_s on Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
multi_s wrote:i dont mean to be over technical.....
Oh no, please do! i like technical and thank you for explaining it for me i really do appreciate it, i thirst for knowledge on all levels!!! and will openly admit when i don't know shi*t about something.
multi_s wrote:sm/bs is right too that the exact same thing could be done with a mixer that has an effects loop and balanced ins/outs.
The problem with a small mixer is i'm trying to keep all of this on a small pedalboard i can put on the floor next to my regular guitar board. Even the really small mixer's would probably take up too much real estate but maybe if i can find a small line mixer but the one's i have seen don't usually have effects loops, i'm going to research this option a little more today, because if i could get a 2 channel one with effects loop i could then go ahead and do my clean / effected blend before it gets sent to the p.a. system, still have on/off control of my effects on my voice for each song, and as long as it has an xlr out keep my balanced out to make it easier on the soundguys. This just might work..... if i can find one ity bity enough......
Iommic Pope wrote:
Skip, you rule. You hate people so much, you're willing to discredit all human progress, its awesome.
