AMP TALK: Tube VS. SolidState

[mrbrooks]

An age old debate, I now know, but have to admit that until the last year or so, I have been completely ignorant to amps in general as all of my various musical projects have consisted of studio recording only, so I never felt the need to buy an amp or even casually read about them.

Long story short-I'm in my second metal band of the last year and have joined forces with a drummer who hits REALLY hard. Previously, we played with a drum machine and were able to vary the output to our tastes (or our amp's limitations). Now, I am stuck...the Marshall Valvestate head that I had gotten by on before no longer cuts the mustard (or the mix) due to the fact that it ONLY sounds good at a medium volume or less. Once I start giving it hell, the beautifully crafted Devi-licious metal mayhem tone I've sculpted turns into metal mush. I cry.

My Marshall 1960 cab seems to handle the excessive volume fine, but I believe that the problem is in the solidstate head-as do others.

Our unofficial soundguy, as well as countless other guitarists that I've spoken to (all of whom are much more versed in this shit than myself) keep telling me, DUDE-YOU GOTTA GO TUBE, BRO!

Great-I say to myself-tube heads only cost a fucking fortune. I'm made of fucking money-I can simply pull $1000 - $2000 out of my next excrement pile, which should be anytime now...sorry...little frustrated...

PLEASE PEOPLE-HELP ME

Any kind of advice, banter, etc. on this subject is very much appreciated.

I do have a few questions that my initial research has created:

1. I am a DEVI EVER pedal fanatic. I like to play Devi pedals into a clean channel amp-I'm not that interested in getting that "Classic" metal tube distortion-I like the DE tones I've come up with. I've been told that by simply switching to a tube head, clean channel or not, that when I increase the voulme to compete with other band members, I will not get a mushy mess. I'm told that the original signal will stay clear and crisp, just get louder-that's the beauty of tube-or one of them anyway...IS THIS TRUE?

That said, I'd like to know about the possibility of putting a Devi pedal in the FX loop of a tube amp and getting a whole new combination of sound because of the way they would interact. Or does one always want a fuzz pedal up front before the preamp section-right after their guitar?

2. How many watts are NECESSARY to get a reasonable volume for practicing with a live drummer who hits really hard? For example: Zvex has the Nanoamp, which is freaking adorable and seems to packa a good punch, but also appears to be designed primarily or recording purposes rather than live/band. Also, I see that Orange makes a couple of smaller heads that are around 15-30 Watts. Of course there's the Blackheart head that I read Devi pumping on another thread around here somewhere-but only 5 watts? These heads all cost A LOT less than your standard Marshall, Krank and Mesa Boogie heads, so I'm naturally curious.

3. What's up with matching-or also MIS-matching ohms between head and cabinet? Does this change the sound characteristics? If so, in what way?

This is just for starters, so please feel free to elaborate in any way. The main reason I'm throwing the line out here is that I don't want to buy blindly, and the guys at the music stores around here don't like it when you bring in your own pedals and try all their gear and don't buy anything right that second.

Please...discuss...

[the raytownian]

Sorry to get your hopes up by not actually saying anything useful, I just wanted to add that I'm having a similar problem...

I've never ever ever ever owned anything other than my sound card and comp. speakers, so it's basically... a solid-state amp (more or less)
So I'm just not going to bother with the tube mess... I've used pedals for everything, and it's all been through those cheap speakers...

So I am only curious about S.S. amps... My needs are LOTSSSSSSSS of headroom and volume and clarity... that's basically it. I don't really need "classic" tube tone/distortion either... I don't know anything about amps/heads/cabs/etc. etc.
---
haha... "DUDE-YOU GOTTA GO TUBE, BRO!" Ugh, it's true... that's exactly what they say, word-for-word... that shit gets obnoxious, BROHAM.

[Antero]

Ugh, Valvestate. Valvestate is some of the worst crap ever - only amp I've ever heard be simultaneously painfully, icepick bright and yet mushy to the point of incomprehensibility.

Also, everybody, you never need as much headroom as you think you need. A bit of compression from the tubes straining can be a serious increase in apparent volume and general force without getting "distorted." Too-clean sounds make volume spikes when you hit it hard, but the spike doesn't sustain long enough to be more than just a twitch - lots of wasted dynamics. That's my experience.

DUDE-YOU GOTTA GO TUBE, BRO!

You do. There are only a tiny handful of SS guitar amps that are worth talking about, and those are more because of individual idiosyncrasies than general applicability.

Great-I say to myself-tube heads only cost a fucking fortune.

Not so! Not always, at least. There's a lot of range. I use a Silvertone head that cost I suppose $450 including retubing with nice tubes and replacing every single damn capacitor in the thing, and I sound consistently awesome.

I've been told that by simply switching to a tube head, clean channel or not, that when I increase the voulme to compete with other band members, I will not get a mushy mess. I'm told that the original signal will stay clear and crisp, just get louder-that's the beauty of tube-or one of them anyway...IS THIS TRUE?

Well, as you get louder you might get some breakup depending on the amp but it's still going to stay crisp and cut a hundred times better than SS. That's a big thing: tube cuts through, while SS can get louder and louder and still not speak clearly.

That said, I'd like to know about the possibility of putting a Devi pedal in the FX loop of a tube amp and getting a whole new combination of sound because of the way they would interact. Or does one always want a fuzz pedal up front before the preamp section-right after their guitar?

You usually want a fuzz in front of the amp. You could always try it out, but it might get very messy.

2. How many watts are NECESSARY to get a reasonable volume for practicing with a live drummer who hits really hard?

There's a huge range of efficiency, and different speakers will also have a major impact. I personally consider 25-30 to be the best range - loud enough for all normal purposes, but still within a range where you can get the tubes to start breaking up and get the harmonics and texture going.

Remember: Efficiency/wattage are not linearly related. It takes about 10 times the wattage to produce 2 times the volume: 5 watts cranked can still get you kicked out of your apartment.

3. What's up with matching-or also MIS-matching ohms between head and cabinet?

Don't. It fucks with efficiency, and in worst case scenarios can hurt your amp.

[Deathtron]

Indeed tube is the only way to go.. man limitless on what my Mesa boogie dual rec can do, let along I was thinking of getting a Orange Amp ( Tiny Terror ) on the Dual it has 6 different distortions, and every penny is worth it. If not black heart amps, or tiny terror, or used mesa boogie, crate ect but for heavy shred/lots of chops .. Mesa Boogie does good work I won't say its the only amp you should use but I only have experience with Marshall, Line 6, and MB. MB DUAL REC works well with fuzz/disort/ Devi had this old recording it was filled with low end SM/TBD madness.

[mrbrooks]

Sweet, some good and useful info here, Antero... Keep it up guys, I wanna know more!

So, now I'm wondering...

My AE pedal sounds fucking great plugged into the solidstate clean channel on the Valvestate-AT LESSER VOLUMES-so...when I finally polug this pup into the clean channel of a decent tube head and start pushing the master volume towards liftoff, is this gonna just light that AE pedal up like a Christmas tree-as if I'd never actually heard the pedal correctly before? There's a certain school of thouhgt that keeps telling me, yes, you haven't really heard your external gear until you run it into a set of tubes...is this true or speculative?
I also notice that without the help of compression, or another fuzz pedal in front of the AE, I don't get the kind of sustain and punch I want, especially on palm muting. Is this due to the lack of sustain on the solid state head?

Again, people...keep it coming!

[mrbrooks]

Hey Deathtron-thanks for the insight. There's actually a local shop here that carries the smaller Orange heads, but I was initially scared off by the fact that they are only 15-30 watt and I want/need to drive my Marshall 1960 pretty hard to keep up with our drummer. I guess I could take the AE over there and have em' plug me into a smaller Orange and a Marshall cab just like mine and see what happens, eh? Those little pups are just around $400-500 new I think...very much affordable.

[Ghost Hip]

I have a solid State Fender FM100 head, going through a Marshall cab, it does the job. I never have to turn the volume past 4 at gigs, so my sound stays quite nice. I do appreciate tube amps, but theres no way I can afford one till I'm out of high school. (which is soon!). I want to buy a Peavy VK100 head, just seems like a bitchin' head.

[aen]

I can't recommend a Fender twin Reverb Reissue enough.

They have all the volume you'll ever need, and they are the cleanest tube amps on the planet.

FO rme, it was the only amp that would do the trick, I want my clean tone to be crystal clean, and as loud as or louder than the drummer. When i hit the fuzz, I want to hear the fucking fuzz guitar, not my amp folding over itself. It does what an "amplifier" should. Makes your shit louder. Doesnt color it or add it's own flavor.

Well, there is the trem and the reverb, but those are footswitchable!

[htsamurai]

im one of the few serious guitarists you will ever come into contact with that doesnt like tubes.
in fact im really anti tube, i LOVE solid state.
its all a matter of preference so i wont try to shove my opinion on you guys, but ive never gotten a clean i really liked out of a tube.
distortion either in all honesty, its always not fuzzy enough.
or too metal-ish.
something...
idk, i dont dig it.

[metalmariachi]

Depending on your drummer and band mates, you can get by with the Tiny Terror or an 18 watt marshal clone, both will be surprising loud through the 1960 cab. 30 watts like the AC30 CC will give you more room to play around with. All three sound killer through a Marshal 4x12.

On the lower price used end, a Fender Bassman is easy to come by inexpensively, but don’t have a great deal of clean headroom. Bandmasters used to be cheap, but then people found out a simple swap of the output TX and a couple of resister/caps changes turned them into Vibroverb/Super Reverb clones.

Traynor, loud clean killer bulletproof machines.
The older Sunn Sorado, Sorano, Sonaro, 200s etc. can be found reasonably but sound better with bass than guitar.
V series Ampegs can be found in the 400-500 range, Stones’ ‘Give Me Shelter’ tone for days, freaking loud and stay clean up till your ears bleed. My favorites.

VHT actually resale for reasonable prices, sound good, in a modernized AC 30 way.

Marshals are just pricey no matter what model.

Music Man freaking loud, heavy and somewhat toneless beasts but can be found for little money.

In the lower build quality arena, with possible long-term reliability issues.
Laney also makes a couple of very nice sounding amps.
And the Crate vintage 30 does sound very good.

You can build your own. There are kits available for the 18-watt Marshal, JTM-45, Blackface and tweed Fenders from Mojo, Allen amps has kits also.

The only SS amp I’d ever recommend is the old Lab Series amps, hey BB King sounded the same through a Twin and a Lab Series but he isn’t known for fuzz.

Of course if you actually have money out the wazoo, the sky’s the limit.

Keith

[Deathtron]

metalmariachi.. knows his shit
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MpZoWsFlJQ [/youtube]

[basti moon]

My little 60w amp has the best clean tone, which is what you wants, yea?
Roland Cube 60. Just stay the hell away from the built-in effects and amp-sims. Blech, why would they put tons of crap in a really good amp like that?!

It's basically like a Roland JC60, in case you want an original one without the tacky fx section.

So, that's my advice, but my needs might be different than other guitarists as I use laptop as well as guitar = needing a clean that is actually clean, not clean as in "clean guitar" with all that tube lulz. Not to say I wouldn't like to have a tube amp it's just.. it's only good for rock guitar or harmonica. And stupidly expensive for an amp that has limitations. My little Roland doubles as a computer speaker when I'm tired of wearing akgs
And I can play jazz music like the young adults of this modern age.

[Antero]

Man, tube amps are NOT only good for rock guitar.

-Run a combo organ or electric piano into a tube amp. Always. The texture and harmonics will blow your mind. It's how they're supposed to be heard.

-Fuckit, any keys. Especially digital stuff. Sounds so much better.

-Jazz guitar, because modern jazz guitar tones are lifeless and dull. Charlie Christian knew what he was doing. Even those who like clean clean clean would do better to grab a Fender Twin so they can have some actual richness behind the sound.

Decent Solid State Amps:
Roland Jazz Chorus, if you need that sound
Those old Traynors that get really fucked up and gritty
Those Fenders with the red knobs

That's about it.

FUCK a Valvestate, mayne.

[basti moon]

That was kind of what I meant, mister
Rock guitar, organs, what's the difference, hehe. Coloured signal was my point. Just a little sleepyhead this morning, sorries.

And by the way, jazz choruses are the main go-to for Rhodes people after what I've heard so I don't know about electric pianos and tubes. Rhodes is an electric piano, is it not? I may be talking jive now.

Actually, I've heard good things about the solid state Peaveys. Mainly that they never break and have good cleans. "Never breaks" is usually mentioned first as the main selling point, hehe.

[Ghost Hip]

I can't recommend a Fender twin Reverb Reissue enough.

They have all the volume you'll ever need, and they are the cleanest tube amps on the planet.

FO rme, it was the only amp that would do the trick, I want my clean tone to be crystal clean, and as loud as or louder than the drummer. When i hit the fuzz, I want to hear the fucking fuzz guitar, not my amp folding over itself. It does what an "amplifier" should. Makes your shit louder. Doesnt color it or add it's own flavor.

Well, there is the trem and the reverb, but those are footswitchable!

Maybe I'll get one of them, sounds like what I'm looking for.