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Could honestly picture you making most of those jokes. I think they would at least be jokes from you?

infamousalien wrote:

psychic vampire. wrote:Guess I am not even really okay with people tryna "reclaim" or "flirt" with this imagery really. I dunno. Internet, shit, whatever, I am just not impressed by fucking white boy punks re-appropriating fascist/racist imagery and calling me a faggot. That isn't shocking, it is literally jist the status quo of the fucking world we live in, white supremacy is like, fucking everywhere.

I mean, i am a faggot, but they don't get to say that.

Douglas P is openly homosexual though and there are references to it in their songs.

Sure, but that doesn't absolve him of being a dick, if you follow.

D.o.S. wrote:

infamousalien wrote:

psychic vampire. wrote:Guess I am not even really okay with people tryna "reclaim" or "flirt" with this imagery really. I dunno. Internet, shit, whatever, I am just not impressed by fucking white boy punks re-appropriating fascist/racist imagery and calling me a faggot. That isn't shocking, it is literally jist the status quo of the fucking world we live in, white supremacy is like, fucking everywhere.

I mean, i am a faggot, but they don't get to say that.

Douglas P is openly homosexual though and there are references to it in their songs.

Sure, but that doesn't absolve him of being a dick, if you follow.

Right but I doubt he's anti-gay or promotes homophobia among his fans. Wasn't commenting on his dickishness.

Well, that's a grey area, and obviously we don't know where his true intentions lie, mostly because DiJ go out of their way to obfuscate their point, which opens them up to that sort of critique.

D.o.S. wrote:

infamousalien wrote:

psychic vampire. wrote:Guess I am not even really okay with people tryna "reclaim" or "flirt" with this imagery really. I dunno. Internet, shit, whatever, I am just not impressed by fucking white boy punks re-appropriating fascist/racist imagery and calling me a faggot. That isn't shocking, it is literally jist the status quo of the fucking world we live in, white supremacy is like, fucking everywhere.

I mean, i am a faggot, but they don't get to say that.

Douglas P is openly homosexual though and there are references to it in their songs.

Sure, but that doesn't absolve him of being a dick, if you follow.

Very true. I feel like I've got into a lot of discussions on ILF that have no real resolution because we don't know the artists intentions. Maybe I should stick to fuzz pedals haha.

as D.o.S. said, Douglas P goes so far out of his way to mystify his relationship to these symbols, but end of the day, he is a third postionist, which is just euphemistic bullshit for "sort of a neo-nazi" to be blunt. Even if he is gay, the symbols and agenda he is promoting and history he is embracing is a homophobic one. Death in June is a reference to the Night of Long Knives, the extermination of the SA wing of the Nazi Party (which was largely comprised of homosexuals, including its leader Ernst Röhm) by the SS, after which the Nazi Party adopted an openly homophobic stance. This man (Douglas P) is pretty openly racist, making music that largely reaches a straight audience, or gays who are open to or tolerant of fascism, and glamorizing a history of genocide through lyrical content and cloying merchandise that puts a Totenkampf on a rainbow flag. (Then again, I am the rare kind of fag who believes in no flags). And even if he weren't an admitted third positionist, maybe in light of the state enforced genocide of 12 million people, we can leave certain symbols alone? Like, entire populations were wiped out.

And to be fair, I react even more strongly to Leftists who glorify Mao and Stalin. Turns out genocide is never really cute. Maybe we can make interesting statements without being grossly disrespectful about things we didn't experience.

And sorry infamousalien, wasn't tryna jump down yr throat. Conversations about DiJ are just frustrating, bc a lot of people i talk to act like he might not be a nazi, but if you dig deep enough, it is pretty clear he is. Sorta. Don't really feel like defining Third Positionism here, lets just say "racist neo-fascist" and call it a day?

It's cool! We're having a discussion and I'm learning stuff. I don't really know much about him/them other than I enjoy some of their songs. I should have just left it at my Boyd Rice in a Hawaiian shirt comment.

I mean, this also falls into the realm of consumer politics and is a complicated fucking beast. I listen to death and black metal sometimes. I avoid stuff that is overtly sympathetic to nazism or whatnot, but i am sure most of the people in a lot of the bands I do like wouldn't feel great about me as a person. I just never understood that whole New York ex-hardcore kid thing of wearing a DiJ shirt and getting a rune tattoo and pretending it is totally fine to adorn your body with these symbols, as though there weren't neo-nazis trying to establish white separatist nations in the northwest or southeast US.

It also maybe helps I never liked his music.

a lot of people i talk to act like he might not be a nazi, but if youndig deep enough, it is pretty clear he is. Sorta.

All of this reminds me of H.P. Lovecraft.

Preface this by saying Lovecraft is one of my favourite writers. I've read most of his stories multiple times. I think he was a creative genius. And any sci-fi, fantasy, or horror writer should be careful about declaring their independence from his work. When Jeffrey Cranor recently said "Lovecraft was a shitty person and a shitty writer," it rang so self-righteously, because Welcome To Night Vale is basically Lovecraftian fiction, just like The Elder Scrolls or any other number of pop culture phenoms. So... big fan.

But he was racist. No "product of his time" racist, either. Foaming at the mouth racist. He hated Jews. He hated Asians. He hated Poles, he hated Greeks, he hated Arabs, he hated blacks, and he reserved a special loathing for any person who was mixed-race. Upon visiting New York's Chinatown and Lower East Side, he longed for a plague to come and wipe out the whole sorry lot. He wrote of Hitler, "I know he's a clown, but by God, I like the boy!" The only way that Lovecraft wasn't a Nazi was in name. His ideologies were exactly the same. What's more, it's right there in the stories.

Re-read even his most popular stories with an eye to racist content, and it's obvious. The villains of "The Call Of Cthulhu" are mixed-race practitioners of voodoo, who are gunned down by the police. In "Re-Animator," he expresses racism against blacks that is shocking to any modern reader. How people miss this is beyond me. Power of wishful thinking, I guess.

To me, you take the good with the bad. Lovecraft's racism was part of his imagination, for better or worse. If he hadn't been afraid of primitive peoples reclaiming society from civilized whites, he would have never been afraid of primitive gods reclaiming earth from civilized humans. You take that personal fear and couple it with "the great reductions" of the time in which he worked (our brains are really just organs, we don't have immortal souls; we are one planet in a vast cosmos; we evolved from other animals over billions of years, etc) and you've got Lovecraft. The idea that people shouldn't change, that progress will kill us, is central to his work. So he was who he was.

But I don't make excuses for him or his racism, because he was a shitty person (Cranor got that much right). It's okay to like something and at the same time, point out that it is problematic in some or even most aspects. When I see fanboys of Lovecraft make excuses for his racism I roll my eyes, how can they not see it? Let him be who he was. Don't speak for a dead man. His stories do that. He wasn't a good man but he was a great creator of weird fiction and I don't know why people need to erase the first to enjoy the second.

All of this also applies to Burzum.

Always thought the Cthulhu mythos written by other writers was better anyway. Can't stand Lovecraft's purple prose, it's stale.

psychic vampire. wrote:Always thought the Cthulhu mythos written by other writers was better anyway. Can't stand Lovecraft's purple prose, it's stale.

LOL, I can see someone thinking that, but you just gotta get into it. All those adjectives... I love me some adjectives now and then. Subtlety is not what he was going for... for me it's the concept though.

The idea that this is all meaningless and a facade for something more sinister underneath it really appeals to me... sometimes you catch it, at night alone. A twinge of the Abyss. It's great!

I mean, i am well acquainted, read pretty much all of his stories, some multiple times. I guess others just stood the test of time better for me, and his virulent racism became harder to overlook after time.

I do understand that. I thought about editing those parts of his stories out and making a personal non-cringey copy. After all, Jefferson did it with the Bible.