Refused.

[neonblack]

Fair enough.

I guess it doesn't really matter anymore. This thread has only barely been on topic for a while now.

[DarkAxel]

Ah, well, D.o.S. was saying they have bad metaphors.

I read your "analysis" (which was literally my first contact with Brand New ever) and judging from that, the lyrics are far from extremely sophisticated - and I feel that's a diplomatic answer.

But "fun fact", working towards an M.A. in English right now myself, I can totally see how you find a way to find them that due to the vocabulary and the general way you talk about them.

Defending your band off-topic is fine with me, ILF is pretty loose with these things and that's great, because I'm really interested in what's gonna happen next here.

But stay away from pseudo-academic lyric analyses and such, that's a paper thin ice, because, especially with their favourite bands, people often get in over their heads, over-analyse stuff and basically try to find greatness where there's none. With properly constructed vocabulary and argumentation, everyone can try do that. Don't.

[D.o.S.]

Also, if we're playing the "what I think about words is justified by a career and a humblebrag" game, I'm a professional writer. I have a degree in writing. Their metaphors are bad. That in and of itself does not do anything (95% of lyricism is delivery, as any fan of the Doors can tell you), but I'm with Dark Axel.

[casecandy]

There is greatness in those lyrics but you guys are obviously free to disagree.

I was just joking about bragging about being an English teacher. That's why I threw the word "humble" in there. Everybody and their dog is an English teacher.

Brand New's lyrics are great IMO and ultimately, I guess that's what it all boils down to... IMO.

Because you could write some huge thing tearing down the lyrics line-by-line and I'd just do what you guys just did.

On-topic, Refused's lyrics were never really the selling point, were they? They're pretty literal and political, which, as John Lennon's solo career will tell you, is a bad move. The only lyric that really ever stuck with me from Refused was "Rather be forgotten, then remembered for giving in." That, and "They say that the classics never go out of style but... they do, they do. Somehow, baby? I never thought that... we do too... we do too."

Both of which are pretty grotesquely ironic given the band's recent career moves LOL

[casecandy]

But stay away from pseudo-academic lyric analyses and such, that's a paper thin ice, because, especially with their favourite bands, people often get in over their heads, over-analyse stuff and basically try to find greatness where there's none. With properly constructed vocabulary and argumentation, everyone can try do that. Don't.

This doesn't sit well with me. What is liking rock music, if not making pseudo-analytical analyses of it? So no one should ever attempt to defend the music they like, given that they are not a professional musicologist? I know I am willingly misinterpreting you on this but you have to admit, that could be seen as sounding very elitist. And, more, importantly, no fun at all. What's next? No Top 10 lists?

[D.o.S.]

I can't help but think of High Fidelity whenever I see the phrase "top 10 list."

I still don't think Refused are selling out, but mostly I'm waiting for Galver's response so I can start arguing about bands I care about again

[christianatl]

BrandNew should play on Ellen.

Shit sucks so bad it doesn't even fall on the spectrum, you guys.

[christianatl]

This thread also needs more Swing Kids and Nation Of Ulysses.

[neonblack]

BrandNew should play on Ellen.

[kbit]

I saw and read that thread, and commented on it, some time ago... good times... FYI I love AbsolutePunk and write for it once in a blue moon.

Well that explains some things

[neonblack]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBqRwmdzSQQ[/youtube]

[casecandy]

This thread also needs more Swing Kids and Nation Of Ulysses.

OMG I FUCKING LOVE THESE BANDS

Although Swing Kids' entire discography is like nine songs

But still, they are good. Great, even. And that band name though

Anyway yeah I definitely fit in waaaaaaaay better over on AP than here but this place is super cool too... at least there are a few people on here who love Brand New like I do. i don't get you guys even one iota. Who the fuck doesn't like Brand New? But anyway you're cool

SWING KIDS

Other good bands along these lines: Union of Uranus, One Eyed God Prophecy, Usurp Synapse, Jerome's Dream (worst vocals in the history of rock music but still good), Funeral Diner, Ampere, Saetia (shitty but with a special place in my heart)... just off the top of my head

Once I worked at a college radio station and I found a Funeral Diner promo CD from 2003 in the back room and I totally stole it. I nearly shit my pants when I found it. They didn't even know the band

[Achtane]

I went for Cymbals Eat Guitars and bailed a little into Brand New's set...
I dunno, just wasn't feeling it at the time.
Plus I had been standing for like 14 hours

[casecandy]

So yeah, Refused.

I never got into The (International) Noise Conspiracy, but they had one cool song on the AdBusters compilation album from 2003 or so. Really good album. Even if I think the magazine itself is a bit pretentious.

[lordgalvar]

But the most important aspect of the album is the way that it blends disparate genres and elements together. Electronic music had never been blended with post-hardcore, not in that way. You can't have Underoath, The Used, Enter Shikari, Asking Alexandria, any of that stuff, if you don't have TSOPTC first.

I can even point to specific examples of songs that came from specific other songs on the album. For example, can you tell me that "Short Stories With Tragic Endings" by From Autumn To Ashes doesn't owe everything to "Tannhäuser/Derivé"? Or that Underoath weren't directly paying homage to "Brutist Pome #5" when they included "The Blue Note," an electronic interlude, on 2004's They're Only Chasing Safety?

Don't take my word for it. In a 2007 interview Patrick Stump of Fall Out Boy cited as the band's two greatest influences, Shape of Punk To Come, and Michael Jackson's Thriller. That same year, Paramore sampled "Liberation Frequency" in their song "Born for This."

If you were born in the 1980s like I was, well, for a lot of people, Refused was the first serious heavy music we heard, outside of Korn or Limp Bizkit or whatever. And if you play punk music then yeah, you understand that, that prophecy came true... it really was the shape of punk to come... I have listened to it a hundred times and still don't totally get it.

Fallout Boy and Paramore are not good ways to support your argument. All that proves is that a producer/some dudes saw stuff that was marketable in Refused and repackaged it to sell again. Didn't the Used get popular because the dude was all over Kelly Osborne on the Osbornes?

I'm not saying that making a living off music is wrong though. It's revisionist history that bothers me. It's like the dudes (and this is true) that tell me AFI influenced Screamo and Emo and helped bring it to the mainstream. (I remember them on Pushead comps and they sounded different...changed their sound to make it big because they saw a payout).

Refused was the first "serious heavy music" people heard? That is pretty sad to never turn on a radio and hear Sabbath. Ha, I grew up with Korn, literally. We are from the same place and I used to kick it with Fieldy from time-to-time (and a shit ton of other bands from that era...I don't think they really thought of themselves as heavy as much as groovy in a hip hop sort of way). The only time I remember Refused was in random conversations about the Hives and crap. I don't remember them influencing a single band out here in California (but...punk, like I said before is very regional...Subhumans were/are more popular than Ramones, Crass, etc. in my hometown...heck so was Conflict).

As far as I remember (being there somewhat at the time), Emo started in the post-DC hardcore scene with Fugazi. It went to Jade Tree, Joan of Arc, Jets to Brazil, etc. Then that whole screamo thaing festered in the same old punk clubs for a while as they developed that San Diego haircut and find prettier people (lots of underground bands were around like Sharharazad, etc) (sorry if I am a bit off/omitted favorites/it ain't my stuff). Record labels were looking for the emotional, angry guy that appealed across genderlines for increased sales (I always called this the "Linkin Park" move...make something with just enough balls so that dudes will bump it in their mini-trucks and girls at a strip mall wont be scared off by the scary hardcore music; try getting a number blasting GISM, Zouo, Siege, Concrete Sox...not going to happen under normal circumstances). Vendetta Red was signed slightly earlier than this and failed (I hung out with these dudes too...they were a band called the Arcylics from my hometown). A shit ton of bands were on retainer (as they always are by labels) that were ready to be pushed once something "hit". It's the same principal that got Muse and Snow patrol careers while Radiohead sat in the studio and tried to get their modular warmed up. Once the labels saturated the market and people started just "friending" bands on social media instead of waiting for curated lists of "what's new and cool" provided by promotional monsters the market crashed. Refused were around at the same time and there was a chance to market them. They made money. Maybe they did influence people. I don't think they are "new" and revolutionary as you have built them up to be...too much happened in the past.

To say that all punk after Refused, or at least all punk moving the "sound" forward, is a direct descendant of Refused is pretty ignorant. It is a mass generalization of many different kinds of people and also a complete misunderstanding of the sub/counter culture (depending on which punk you talk to on which day...different discussion).

Shit, I know punks that listen to Whitehouse and Cabaret Voltaire without touching "traditional" punk in 30 years. I like Japanese Punk, some Punk-n-roll, Anarcho, and the weirder stuff. Am I the same market as the D-Beat guy, the grinder, the crusty, or the traditional skins walking around in the same scene? Nope. We all listen to punk though. I can also guarantee that Refused's influence never made its way to a lot of places. Go tell Gorgonized Dorks, Unholy Grave, 2-minute Dreka (I hate that fucking band), Nots, Terrible Feelings, Life, SHI, Super Fast Girlie Show, or 99.9% of the "punk" bands around the world that they are direct descendents of Refused.

Furthermore, you say that the inclusion of electronics (sorry I deleted that part of the post on accident) and blending of genres changed punk. Let's look at the early punk bands: Screamers->synths; X-> country/rock, Blasters->country/rock; Devo(yea, they get counted, 'cause I say so)->Synths, noise, garage influence; Blondie-R&B, Disco, Hip Hop, Rock; Sucicide->noise and synths; the Jam-> R&B; the Clash->if there was a genre, they "blended it".

Now Crass...go listen to "Christ the Album" and tell me there isn't synths and tape loops all over that thing. Oh, they were also influenced by kraut rock (Neu) and psychadelic hippy music. (Penny's previous bad was Exit).

"The Sound of Punk To Come" is a pretty pretentious statement. They probably knew that. It sold a few albums based on the name, I am sure. Cock Sparrer got a deal because a label thought the title "England Belongs To Me" would drum up enough attention to sell. Crass did the same thing with "Punk is Dead" and even Sore Throat did it with "Death to Capitalist Hardcore" (featuring DRI on the cover).

Anyway, if you like/don't like/don't give a shit about Refused. Great for you. Just don't try to prove an absurd statement made to increase record sales/look cool. It's just a title.