Tonebenders. Discuss.

[jrmy]

Market research?

Tonebenders & fuzz faces are the two main types of fuzzes that I've stayed the most away from... possibly for the very reasons you list...

[jrmy]

Yeah, I've got transistors, and I'm gonna use 'em.

If it doesn't become yours, I believe that quote should be SOMEBODY'S sig around here!

any GE fuzz you do like? I don't like most of the more common fuzzfaces out there, especially now that people are moving to NKT274s. Genuine-article 275s are a damn good transistor but its really only recently that getting them has been difficult on the level of some of the TB trannies...

the NKT213 though... oh man. that is the real holy grail transistor imo. if you ever see someone selling a buzzaround--made by anybody--with 213s in it, buy that fucker and don't look back.

HA! Funny you should ask - I got a Buzzaround clone from RocknessMonster (inspired by seeing it on your board in a post a while back, BTW, so thanks!), and while I can't find the original PM that he sent that lists the damn transistors he used ( ) I think (THINK) he said that they were 213s. Either way, it sounds great and I totally love it. So, yeah - I like the Buzzaround! But now that you've posted about it, I'd be really interested in hearing clips of what you describe as a good Tonebender.

[Scruffie]

Well i've built Tone Benders and I have a stock of 1950/60s mullards and I must say I love them, tried some AC128s and that just wasn't right, my favourite do have to be the OC81Ds their smoother flavour may be due to being the lowest hFe of all the Mullard Tone Bender transistors and also the reason why the versions that used transistors other than the 81Ds had different component values to cut the harshness off them.

I don't think what BYOC have are mullard... they're the old style glass transistors for sure but they could have been made by anyone, lots of the glass packages look like that, I don't think the Mullard part is too important, I have a NKT OC44 which is just as nice as a mullard but I think some of them were probably made very cheaply and badly and that's what those parts may be,.

You have to take the leakage of the transistors into account with the tone of the circuit aswell though, although the Tone Bender does like to have 1 leaky transistor in it having very leaky transistors will lead to a bad sound and also incorrect gain readings, if you buy an unmatched set you're gunna end up with a bad sound so I think that's why you're not gunna get the best sound from a kit, i've heard some god awful sounds coming out the circuit as have you.

My personal experience with my Tone Bender though, I love it, it's my go to fuzz and nails that babe i'm gunna leave you chorus by zeppelin and a properly built one can sound incredible, I also put some 60's mustard caps in with it and I will admit that normally I can't tell that much difference with cap differences but they did add some magic to it over the cheaper ceramics I used but mylars would probably be nice too.

Over transistors though... I really don't like the buy up of them that's occuring, I have a fear that alot will just end up sitting in peoples boxes that bought them just because they heard they were the best or in mass stocks hidden away somewhere, they should be available for use and not hoarded but the price is climbing fast as more and more people learn about DIY and less are available on the market after being bought up.

On the subject of Fuzz faces though... they can sound good with alot of germaniums, the myth they have to use AC128 is great for people that want to get the other germaniums that will sound better, AC128 weren't even good at the time just cheap and in large supply, I hear alot of good things about the newer russian Germaniums (which also sound good in Tone Benders apparently) I haven't personally built up a fuzz face yet though but I will be soon as i've heard enough about it now and it's time to finally try one.

There's alot of misinformation out there and probably always will be but if you take the time you can end up with some nice sounding vintage units, possibly improved over the original.

[jrmy]

Hmmm. Yeah, I can do that. I'll get some clips up tonight of what I consider to be good examples of a MKI, MKII and MKIII done right. part is none of them were built by me with anything I can actually get. Hah.

Sweet! I look forward to hearing 'em!

and re: the Buzzaround--hell yeah, nice. That is an amazing circuit even without the 213s but there is something special about those transistors for sure. i've heard other BAs with other stuff that sound really good too--like a firebreathing fuzzface from hell, I love it

Yeah, it's pretty amazing. There's not a setting on it that I don't like, or have a use for. When I played it with the sustain and timbre all the way up, it blew my mind, but then when I cranked them down to next to nothing and adjusted the volt for the volume drop, it blew my mind again!

RM actually gave me a couple alternate sets of transistors, so I could see what the circuit sounds like with other stuff in it, but I haven't been motivated to try them yet. I really should...

[eti]

Just happened to favorite this today.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N9CXOUnNrk[/youtube]

[Mudfuzz]

I used to have one of these

I never got on well with it.

[jrmy]

When I played it with the sustain and timbre all the way up, it blew my mind, but then when I cranked them down to next to nothing and adjusted the volt for the volume drop, it blew my mind again!

I had the exact same experience. exact same.

Good stuff . Makes me wonder why we don't see more Buzzaround circuits... uh... around.

Also, I wish I could comment cogently on Scruffie's commentary beyond saying "I bow down before your superior knowledge!"

Damn, I wish I could solder. And understood electronics. Or electricity.

[jrmy]

Yep. That's the sound of good ol' rock n' roll, all right! Damn. Now you've got me almost wanting a Tonebender.

[jrmy]

Damn, I wish I could solder. And understood electronics. Or electricity.

dude its really not hard. this is something i definitely just decided to try to learn and happened to catch on to the basics pretty quickly. I've still got a LOT to learn, but once you kind of understand how caps and resistors and diodes and transistors all manipulate an electrical current and turning it into an amplified sound, its cake

its like you have a never ending waterfall. that is the electrical charge you are feeding it. All the electronics inside a pedal do is decide how that charge is routed when you play through it. the full circuit design just takes the note and splits it up, performs certain functions such as creating a certain distorted sound, monitors and controls noise levels and such and have it come out sounding like something you want it to on the other side. Its just mapping things out and experimenting with every stop along the way. Its like putting your note through an electrical cheese grater. its a lot of fun

Argh! But the problem is this: I have too many hobbies. I have not enough time. I refuse to cut down on my hobbies, and can't increase my time (short of taking more illegal drugs). So I guess I'll just have to buy my awesome effects from people like... you!

You see, my not being able to solder is actually a win-win for all of us!

...except for my bank account... d'oh...

[Scruffie]

Well i've built Tone Benders and I have a stock of 1950/60s mullards and I must say I love them, tried some AC128s and that just wasn't right, my favourite do have to be the OC81Ds their smoother flavour may be due to being the lowest hFe of all the Mullard Tone Bender transistors and also the reason why the versions that used transistors other than the 81Ds had different component values to cut the harshness off them.

I don't think what BYOC have are mullard... they're the old style glass transistors for sure but they could have been made by anyone, lots of the glass packages look like that, I don't think the Mullard part is too important, I have a NKT OC44 which is just as nice as a mullard but I think some of them were probably made very cheaply and badly and that's what those parts may be,.

You have to take the leakage of the transistors into account with the tone of the circuit aswell though, although the Tone Bender does like to have 1 leaky transistor in it having very leaky transistors will lead to a bad sound and also incorrect gain readings, if you buy an unmatched set you're gunna end up with a bad sound so I think that's why you're not gunna get the best sound from a kit, i've heard some god awful sounds coming out the circuit as have you.

My personal experience with my Tone Bender though, I love it, it's my go to fuzz and nails that babe i'm gunna leave you chorus by zeppelin and a properly built one can sound incredible, I also put some 60's mustard caps in with it and I will admit that normally I can't tell that much difference with cap differences but they did add some magic to it over the cheaper ceramics I used but mylars would probably be nice too.

Over transistors though... I really don't like the buy up of them that's occuring, I have a fear that alot will just end up sitting in peoples boxes that bought them just because they heard they were the best or in mass stocks hidden away somewhere, they should be available for use and not hoarded but the price is climbing fast as more and more people learn about DIY and less are available on the market after being bought up.

On the subject of Fuzz faces though... they can sound good with alot of germaniums, the myth they have to use AC128 is great for people that want to get the other germaniums that will sound better, AC128 weren't even good at the time just cheap and in large supply, I hear alot of good things about the newer russian Germaniums (which also sound good in Tone Benders apparently) I haven't personally built up a fuzz face yet though but I will be soon as i've heard enough about it now and it's time to finally try one.

There's alot of misinformation out there and probably always will be but if you take the time you can end up with some nice sounding vintage units, possibly improved over the original.

hell yeah Scruffie, awesome post, that is what I'm talking about. I think this is why I'm do interested in TBs--its kind of like watching an iconic, but endangered species going extinct.

the BYOC ones I got were Mullard, but for all I know they got some huge random lot of "NOS TRANSISTORS!!OMG!!" with various brands and such, I dunno. I have Phillips OC75s in my MK1 (I think! sorry if I'm wrong there dude!) built by SonicVI that sound great. I've had some OC75s with what I consider unacceptable leakage values but not too many thankfully... but what you said about possibly improving something--that is sort of where my head is right now. Nothing I'll be able to build will ever be as important than the original TBs, but I wonder what other directions you could take the circuit. Been thinking about that a lot lately, I have some ideas but none I've dug into. There are a lot of interesting lesser known components I want to do some experimenting with.

I just fear that in 10 years only rich people will have actual Tonebender pedals and everyone else will be using a model of one on the latest upgrade to Axe-FX.......

I know what you mean about watching something go extinct, I have enough stock of what I want to build myself enough pedals to last me my playing life and no more, which is a shame, I was too late to buy up the MN3005s though and am about to get the only SAD1024 chip i'l probably ever hold soon ($35!)

Lol no need to appologise if they're not Phillips... Phillips and Mullard were the same transistor manufacturer actually just based in different countries I think.

Improving things to accept bad transistors is good, it's a shame to let things go to waste, on a production scale it probably involves too much tweaking of each set to be worth it but for a single builder it becomes a possibility, I notice a few companies such as Dunlop have recently re-released pedals with the original mullard transistors in them too in small batches, the need for vintage is at its strongest now.

One thing that is not important in the clones or the originals is the vintage carbon composite resistors, in tube amps then yeah they have good tonal effects, at 9V in a pedal they just add noise, expense and will have drifted in value over the years so will lead to poorly biased circuit (although the altered values could have a good effect on the tone I suppose) so for the old circuit it's gotta be metal film for me.

The russian germaniums are in large supply though which is good and do apparently sound very good, okay they aren't quite the same as the originals but atleast it's an option, I think the problem with putting them into your boutique clone though is you have to convince the buyer against the masses of misinformation on the internet that they don't need the special germanium (which they have just heard the name of and don't know why it's important)

You say nothing you can build will be as imporant as the original TB... don't be so sure, it's very possible to get that new tone, alot of it is probably down to luck and good marketing for the late 90's and early 00's it must be remembered that the fuzz factory was a pedal loads of guitarists thought they needed cause of good marketing and use by famous artists.

With vintage parts though it will be a case of working around existing designs though as building a new design from out of production components just doesn't make sense, that's why you get alot of silicon/germanium hybrids and using those lesser known components you speak of would be awesome.

If I were to market a tone bender.. I think i'd have a simple diode based switchable upper octave add on circuit to add some extra flavour to it (that little bit of add upper octave adds something extra to your already fuzzy tone and is very simple to implement) adjust the component values to match the transistors in the pedal perfectly (a board with trimmers in place of all resistors and a multimeter is all you'd need for testing) an attractive casing, maybe straying away from the standard 1590B, just as Solasound & Colorsound still do have their enclosures specially made (I can think of several companies a special enclosure has worked for Colorsounds, Arbiter Fuzz Faces & Rangemasters, A/DA flangers etc) then good marketing, letting people know what they're buying and not just using buzz words like NOS germaniums which means nothing, telling them you specially selected them, how & why, what difference it will make, how the circuit is tuned.

But as you say... in 10 years it probably will be the case that DIY dies out from a lack of supply and a take over from digital effects and a few rich people will probably collect the pedals and never use them or be the major artists that used them since they were young.

[Scruffie]

For Russians... GT308 & 9s are the ones to look for I think and I hear GT402 may be good aswell.

Another thing i'd suggest doing back on the subject is marketing is using an MAX1044 chip or simmilar to allow use of a negative ground supply while providing the circuit with positive ground powering as converting the vintage circuits to work on negative ground power supplies can have... *excuse the pun* Negative effects and using the extra circuits means the person can use their usual one spot adapter for their pedal and not worry.

That or you could convert them for NPN in which case GT311 are the Russian NPN Germaniums.

Yeah there's plenty of little octave add ons out there, it's the best option for an addition to the circuit except maybe a tone stack or something.

[jrmy]

+1 on octavey add-ons! A sweet (ie not horrendously harsh) octave + fuzz = happitude.