Clean amp best for using fuzz fx?

[univalve]

What is that wrong country storage thing?

[goroth]

What is that wrong country storage thing?

Have lived in Australia, and they are in a warehouse there
Laney VC30 2x10 and a Laney AOR Pro Tube 50 watt head (with Mullards!!). But I didn't have flight cases for them, and don't really have anyone I can hit up to arrange flight cases and shipping for them. Saw the same Laney locally (shock, we don't get interesting gear locally) for a good price but was broke at the time. Ah, gear regrets...
Still, I picked up the L11 for 70 euros, which was a steal! Reverb and compression are dead, but who cares. I've got Dr Scientist for company on the reverb front. A little worried that it has started crackling when I start it - might need a cap job...

[Smarty]

All my tube stuff is in storage in the wrong country, so I've been solidstating it up for the past few years.

Peavey rage: everything sounds shit in front of this amp. For whatever reason I can get the input to clip more when I use a JFET buffer than when I go straight into the amp. The weird thing is, the JFET buffer has ca 0,97 gain = it should be (and is) slightly quieter, and should give better headroom into the amp (it clips). Weird. Even The Elements sounds horrid into the Peavey. Which is in itself an achievement.

I also have a Lab Series L11 head as my gigging amp. 200 watts, using the clean channel exclusively. Fuzz sounds great into it. On the other hand, you can't drive the input too hard - with a tube amp some dudes like smashing the input with fuzz, which means that the fuzz is generating additional overdrive/distortion. I tried the mini brute Gnomertron and it had so much output that it sounded like ass whatever I did. It drove the amp into "bad clipping territory" - which can also occur with a tube amp, depends on how you like your clipping. On the other hand, if I run fuzzes so that they have a similar gain to the clean signal, or a little bit boosted, everything sounds great through this amp.

There aren't a whole lot of newly made solid state guitar amps that are really well designed any more - I think it's due to the technology being so cheap that the type of design really suited cheap amps, and so the market was flooded with cheap amps after the initial fascination with the technology (and the good amps, such as the Lab Series, that were a result of that). Thus, anyone after a good amp looked at tubes, and there was never really a market for awesome solid state guitar amps. Tube amps haven't come down a lot in price until recently, and mostly then as a result of outsourced labour. The difference between a tube amp that sounds ass and a solid state is that the nature of tubes is such that if there isn't too much other crap in the circuit pushing them will produce a distortion that is generally interpreted as pleasing, regardless of the design/tube, whereas solid state can sound like Dr ScientistThe Elements or a Boss DS-1. *

Test how things sound with the VS100, but personally I'd run fuzz into the clean channel at close to unity gain.

I'll probably get a tube amp again as I miss the additional harmonics and that little bit of distortion inherent in even a clean signal (few tube amps are linear amplifiers any more), but I'm more than happy with fuzz + solid state.

* This paragraph is built on gross generalisation and unfounded speculation

Thanks for everyone's comments.

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean when you say 'close to unity gain'? [I'm a drummer by trade, playing guitar is a sideline that has really took off recently!]

The VS100 sounds pretty good, i've had it for almost 2 years now. Having said that, I've never actually played through a tube amp so I can't really compare . I've not played through the clean channel much on the VS100 so perhaps I ought to start to doing more of this alongside some experimenting with just a little grit on one of the OD channels too. Mind you, got to get the Hyperion first before I can do any of this!

Should the VS does sound crappy with fuzz pedals any pointers on what kind of amp I should seek out? Is 100W a tad too much for playing small sized clubs - could I go for something with lower wattage, say 50W, but better quality (i.e. tube)?

[rfurtkamp]

Unity gain: as loud with the effect on as it is with it off. Use the level control on the pedal to set this.

As far as what amp, etc. it'll depend on venue size, do you have backend support (PA), how clean do you want it to be, what style of music, etc.

100w out of most amps will peel paint off walls in rehersal spaces and small clubs.

[The4455]

But even in the old days, the right fuzz through a Roland Jazz Chorus is a truly blissful, evil monster.

Yup. I can vouch for this B:ASSMASTER into JC-120 =

[rfurtkamp]

Anything on my board into JC-50: paint can go flying.

[GardenoftheDead]

Should the VS does sound crappy with fuzz pedals any pointers on what kind of amp I should seek out? Is 100W a tad too much for playing small sized clubs - could I go for something with lower wattage, say 50W, but better quality (i.e. tube)?

50 watts with a tube amp is too loud for small clubs, in all honesty. With solid state you want as much as you can get because the last 25% of the master volume knob is useless once clipping starts.

[rfurtkamp]

^depends on the amp.

Some SS stuff will stay clean 'til max, in a painful, brutal way.

You get what you pay for.

[zRobertez]

Beginners use fuzz into overdriven amps. That smoothes out the fuzz. When you are addicted you start smashing multiple fuzzes into fucking loud clean amps.

I ain't no beginner!
I go fuzz > amp od to get something along the lines of the fuck crackle switch. It's so gnar, dewd

[goroth]

When you distort a signal (like in a fuzz pedal) you usually do it by amplifying the signal (adding "gain") until it gets so loud it makes the amplifier (a transistor in your fuzz) go to shit. The signal is clipped, producing distortion/fuzz. Some fuzzes can get waaaaaay louder than your clean signal. In a tube amp this is ok, because tubes distort in a way that is generally accepted as musical. Most solid state amps sound horrid when the input signal is too loud. So, as rfurtkamp said, make sure the fuzz has the same loudness (gain) as the clean signal (no effects). This will make sure that any distortion you get is from the fuzz, and not from overdriving the input of your amp.

Another thing re: tubes/solid state: tubes have to "work" to sound good. So if you've got a 100 watt tube amp the quietest setting where it actually sounds decent is going to be fucking loud. Solid state is more forgiving - your vs100 will sound good at most volumes, which gives you a bit more flexibility.

The sort of gigs I play (small clubs) with a 200 watt solid state head and adjust the volume as required. If I was going to roll with tubes I'd probably grab a 30 watter.

[Smarty]

Thanks for your replies and advice, esp the Unity Gain explanation

We have mostly been playing smallish clubs with their own PA, monitors etc. Played at the Bull & Gate in London last month and the sound engineer asked me to turn down! Our main sort of sound is a cross between shoegaze and post punk with some keyboard/flute (yes, flute!) thrown in to fill out the sound.

I got the VS100 second hand from a guy who had hardly played it. It was a relative steal (i think) at £130 - about $190 - mainly because he lived in Norfolk which is quite a remote part of England in the east so not many people were near or prepared to drive and pick it up.

Is a 30W tube amp loud then? I've always assumed low watt amps (whether SS or Tube) were a bit weak. I'm interested that a 30W tube could play a good sized venue easily.

[zRobertez]

Is a 30W tube amp loud then? I've always assumed low watt amps (whether SS or Tube) were a bit weak. I'm interested that a 30W tube could play a good sized venue easily.

YES. 30w tubes are loud. I've never turned mine up all the way and I've played a few similar shows. Even with a fucking loud drummer, it's only ever a hair past noon on the master volume. But what's nice is that its low enough power for it still sound good at some bedroom levels. That's on guitar.

I would compare it to a 200w solid state bass amp I had. Which, if i remember correctly, I had about 50%-75% on the volume to keep up. And that was on guitar too, but with a bass amp.

[goroth]

I think looking at wattage can be a bit misleading. Wattage is simply a representation of the amplifiers maximum power output before clipping. As solid state sounds (generally) horrid when clipping there will be little to no volume left in the amp after it reaches its clean threshold (max wattage is reached near the max range of the volume knob). A Marshall JCM800 on the other hand is clean up until about 2-3 on the volume control, if that, then the rest is distorted. So the JCM800 at 100 watts is delivering that at around 3 on the volume scale (because after that it is clipping). After that, the maximum volume may not increase by all that much, but as distortion increases, compression increases. As compression increases the average volume level increases - the signal is at max volume for a longer period of time for a given guitar signal. So there are two effects at play there - one is the fact that the tube amp on 3 is pushing the same wattage as the solid state on 10 (thus leading you to think "holy shit, this thing's only on three, I could go 7 whole notches louder), and the fact that even a small amount of compression is going to substantially alter the average volume. You aren't getting this compression with a solid state amp.

Then you've got your speakers to add into the equation... not all speakers are created equal. Some speakers are inefficient, and some speakers are quite good at converting a given signal to a sound. Given the relationship between wattage and volume, for every 3db increase in volume you need to double the wattage. So if you are running a 100 watt head with fairly normal speakers (with say an SPL of 97dB) this will sound the same as a 50 watt head running into speakers rated at 100dB.

Finally, your ears perceive different frequencies differently. We are better at hearing things around the human voice's natural frequency range, which means if you have your amp eqd with fat mids you're likely going to sound louder than someone doing the scooped thing at the same volume level.

Then there's the fact that a 4x12 seems louder than a 1x12, despite the fact that the output of both is exactly the same....

[rustywire]

I went from stacking fuzz with pedal overdrive to amp overdrive, but the results are essentially the same.
Both were a means to the end and can *sound just as good as each other* in their own respective context.

Started with a clean, master-volume amp (SF Fender) and now prefer an on-the-verge/dirty non-master Selmer.
When I made the transition, my favorite dirt pedals with the Fender had to go, as they clashed horrifically with the Selmer.


Acquiring the amp you like on its own, whether clean or dirty, makes subsequent gear searches that much easier.

Also FWIW: A 5w tube amp with a single, highly sensitive driver can sound "louder" than a 100w tube amp with a half stack of much less efficient drivers.
And I'd say any style of amp (tube or transistor) can sound fuzzier than the next, but it's largely dependent on user. User is the most influential variable.

Spec sheets and marketing lines are misleading and typically do anything but convey how something sounds to you; or what can potentially be done to sound with said device.

[univalve]

I think looking at wattage can be a bit misleading. Wattage is simply a representation of the amplifiers maximum power output before clipping. As solid state sounds (generally) horrid when clipping there will be little to no volume left in the amp after it reaches its clean threshold (max wattage is reached near the max range of the volume knob). A Marshall JCM800 on the other hand is clean up until about 2-3 on the volume control, if that, then the rest is distorted. So the JCM800 at 100 watts is delivering that at around 3 on the volume scale (because after that it is clipping). After that, the maximum volume may not increase by all that much, but as distortion increases, compression increases. As compression increases the average volume level increases - the signal is at max volume for a longer period of time for a given guitar signal. So there are two effects at play there - one is the fact that the tube amp on 3 is pushing the same wattage as the solid state on 10 (thus leading you to think "holy shit, this thing's only on three, I could go 7 whole notches louder), and the fact that even a small amount of compression is going to substantially alter the average volume. You aren't getting this compression with a solid state amp.

Then you've got your speakers to add into the equation... not all speakers are created equal. Some speakers are inefficient, and some speakers are quite good at converting a given signal to a sound. Given the relationship between wattage and volume, for every 3db increase in volume you need to double the wattage. So if you are running a 100 watt head with fairly normal speakers (with say an SPL of 97dB) this will sound the same as a 50 watt head running into speakers rated at 100dB.

Finally, your ears perceive different frequencies differently. We are better at hearing things around the human voice's natural frequency range, which means if you have your amp eqd with fat mids you're likely going to sound louder than someone doing the scooped thing at the same volume level.

Then there's the fact that a 4x12 seems louder than a 1x12, despite the fact that the output of both is exactly the same....

Pretty Good Post.
May i add, that we hear volume increase logarithmic: Double the Volume is Ten (10!) Times more wattage (10 Watt --> 100 Watt is the double audible Volume)