Is someone waving a scammy carrot under my nose?

[theactionindex]

whatch

publically

SOMEONE GET THIS WOMAN A SPEAK AND SPELL ASAP.

[kbit]

Now that Minoan is threatening to sue ILF to remove this thread and "shut the site down," which they say will, "cost [them] money, which in turn will make [them] really angry," I suppose I should comment.

Maybe what Minoan is running is legal, but it's still a bullshit scheme to take artists' money, where the money they make off poor artists is far greater than the money that 99.9% of them are ever going to make back...call it a legal scam, call it unethical, or call it leech-like; even IF you're doing things legally, it's well within my legal rights to call Minoan shitty and worthless. And let me add to that: Minoan lies, as proven by Marie G.'s post, which is obviously someone at Minoan (whose IP address conveniently matches Boulder, Colorado, where Minoan is based). So no one should trust any of their other claims.

If you'd like to sue ILF for user-submitted content (which was simply a question about whether or not your company is shitty, which has now been decided), please direct your letters to ILF's team of lawyers. They shouldn't be hard to find, as they're in the same building as your imaginary lawyers. Take the stairs at the end of the main hall, then fuck off.

[Chankgeez]

Tom, can we countersue?

I feel defamed.

Let the record show that TheOndrakGuy asked for our opinions on the matter and I responded:

Sounds like a scam to me.

Note, I did not explicitly state it as a scam. Merely that it seems like a scam.

I would like proof of Marie G.'s claims.

[Big Mon]

Shame on yuh
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlRV2N8s_IQ[/youtube]

[JuJo]

Now that Minoan is threatening to sue ILF to remove this thread and "shut the site down," which they say will, "cost [them] money, which in turn will make [them] really angry," I suppose I should comment.

Maybe what Minoan is running is legal, but it's still a bullshit scheme to take artists' money, where the money they make off poor artists is far greater than the money that 99.9% of them are ever going to make back...call it a legal scam, call it unethical, or call it leech-like; even IF you're doing things legally, it's well within my legal rights to call Minoan shitty and worthless. And let me add to that: Minoan lies, as proven by Marie G.'s post, which is obviously someone at Minoan (whose IP address conveniently matches Boulder, Colorado, where Minoan is based). So no one should trust any of their other claims.

If you'd like to sue ILF for user-submitted content (which was simply a question about whether or not your company is shitty, which has now been decided), please direct your letters to ILF's team of lawyers. They shouldn't be hard to find, as they're in the same building as your imaginary lawyers. Take the stairs at the end of the main hall, then fuck off.

[devnulljp]

If you'd like to sue ILF for user-submitted content (which was simply a question about whether or not your company is shitty, which has now been decided), please direct your letters to ILF's team of lawyers. They shouldn't be hard to find, as they're in the same building as your imaginary lawyers. Take the stairs at the end of the main hall, then fuck off.

Tom is awesome.
That is all.

[benjuro]

Tom is awesome.
That is all.

[theavondon]

Did someone say milfs

[TheOndrakGuy]

Well, since this has blown up into something absolutely hilarious, I think you should all see what's been happening behind the scenes here.
To be honest, I can't believe I was ever naive enough to consider going through with this. I've recently graduated uni and managed to land a job in their marketing department, so knowing what I know now, I think I need to go back in time and give myself a talking to.

Anyway, the day the thread got resurrected by 'Marie G,' there was a flurry of posts on the Minoan Music Facebook page and I got a less than happy Email from the woman who initially contacted me about my band. Without further ado, I present to you, full and uncut, the exchange that followed. Hopefully other small bands and artists who have been contacted will see this and see what happens when they start to show any sign of second thoughts or start to look outside of any links/profiles THEY provide.

Minoan Music -

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Hey Joe, we really resent this nonsense and would appreciate you removing any trace of this. Anyone who researches us and Eric can obviously see that we are credible and legit, and frankly speaking, this it total slander and we won't have it. Do us all a favor and remove these comments, or we'll have to employ our solicitor to do it for us...and that will cost us money, which in turn will make us really angry: http://www.ilovefuzz.com/viewtopic.php?f=150&t=28042

Thank you.

Best,

KR

Me -

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Hi Katerina,

Sorry about taking a while to reply, I've recently started the new job I was on about and it's a bit hectic.
I'm sorry that you feel my post was slander, however, I can't help but feel you have grasped the wrong end of the stick here.
I have done plenty of research on your company; both the Minoan Music side and the Music Promotion.com side, and other than your own web presences and one less-than-favourable review of one of the Music to Kill For compilations, I appear to have hit dead ends. I even looked you up on linked-in.

I'm sure understand that research involves more than reading over the website of the company, but asking for first-hand accounts, other people's opinions and, in this case, trying to look up some more of your less well known artists (since I really can't see much of a web-presence of Marie G... in fact, for someone who's made back $10,000, she doesn't have as much as a Soundcloud profile. As a musician, if someone put that sort of money in my lap, there's be at least a new album and a video to go with it).

What I posted was definitely not slander - not even in the loosest definition of the term. I will admit that the title may have been somewhat provocative if taken the wrong way, however, in an online community where posts are likely to get buried, a provocative title helps gain views and responses. The message itself was merely me presenting the facts about what you do and the parts with which I had my reservations (after all, for any unsigned band, the money you charge is a lot). At no point during the message did my tone become accusatory, defamatory or slanderous. I was just asking people who have more experience than me for their honest opinions on the matter and if they had any experience with yourselves. As for the replies I got from the people on the forum: I hold no responsibility for any of their messages, although the reaction I got is quite telling - if there is anyone you should be threatening with solicitors, it is everybody who replied to me. On a related note, you may want to tell Marie G to delete her post since, as one of your artists, she's not doing you any favours in terms of reputation and only serving to exacerbate the matter (the thread had been dead for the nearly a month and was likely to get deleted if left alone).

As well as asking on that forum, I also consulted a couple of personal contacts I have in the industry; Gazz Rogers of Magic Garden Studios, who has recorded with The Editors, Travis and The Stereophonics, and John Lawrence who used to play guitar in the acclaimed indie band Gorky's Zygotic Mynci in the mid 90s. Both of them told me to err on the side of caution and ask if you have a legal contract that needs to be signed for your business and if you work with either MCPS or PRS in terms of industry licensing.

I have not, and will not accuse you of being a scam, only ask the question as to whether you are and look at the answers. I was considering giving you the benefit of the doubt and coming back to you in the near future in order to enquire about some sort of deal (as I said, I have now started my new job and have the money), but due to your overblown and frankly unprofessional response to one message posted on an online forum and the threat of legal action (which would be thrown out of court by any sound-minded legal professional), I have decided to give it a miss and instead spend the money directly on the band; assembling press packs, getting CDs made and working hard to get where we want to be.

I hope this clarifies matters.

Thank you for considering us in the past.

Regards,
Joe Ondrak.

Minoan Music -

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Joe, in 10 years of Minoan's existence, noone credible has ever questioned, suggested, accused or even insinuated that we are not legit, are not credible, or are scammers. Why is that? Because we are very well respected amongst major and indie labels and artists, and have a very visible track record.

Your last email to us was as follows:

I've been talking things over with the guys and they're all up for it. I've been looking at the money side of things and splitting the cost will work well for us (that'll be $300 = £189(ish) for two months, right?). Just to check, for this, we'll get a slot on the compilation and our EP out there too? If so, this is all good

Not only did we decide to approach and work with an unknown artist and agree to help split up the costs as a show of good will, upon receiving the above, we put things into motion. We researched your music with greater depth (our owner Eric included), listened to your entire catalogue available online (bandcamp, soundcloud, etc), Eric started mentioning you to various contacts and even tested you in a scene for the show he is producing that is being developed. That took time, effort, and rather than address your concerns with us, you decided to post an incendiary question on a board with a bunch of wannabeez, who if they actually had a career and knew what they were doing, wouldn't be trolling on a site like that. To tell us you're in, and turn around and post this nonsense leaving it open to nonsense responses...now THAT'S unprofessional. When Eric finds out he will be livid, as we wasted a lot of time on you, and now my ass is on the line as well. He's likely to get all 4 attorneys to shut the page down!

I don't know what you expect regarding web presence, that makes no sense. The roster and flow of updates should be enough for a logical person to make a real judgement on the validity of an organization. As for Marie Gervais, she a wealthy socialite that spends most of her time in the south of France, and does music as a hobby. People like her don't care to advertise themselves. We couldn't care less about web presence, that's not our responsibility, and nor do we claim it as such. Licensing is what we push for, and Marie made 100% profit. As a musician you say that if that money fell into your lap, you would use it for this and that. Well sure, but she's not you.

Your message was presenting facts, but your presentation sucked, because look at the result. The people you were seeking opinions from have never dealt with us, and obviously base their judgements on the fact that there is a price. I don't know where artists get off thinking that they are owed anything, and that everything should be free. We are a business, selling a service, not a charity. Artists can choose to take part, or not. If an artist would like to spend 10 years and over 100K developing their relationships, by all means. Our service offers a short cut to that exposure. If you had not posted that, the negative and baseless responses would not exist. I will not have Marie delete her response, as obviously there needs to be someone with experience and actual knowledge of the real world posting a logical and truthful response.

As for a contract, we don't take rights and don't take a percentage, so why would we need a contract? We have invoices that outline everything, as we're only a "delivery" conduit, so to speak. Again, you didn't ask the right questions.

Frankly speaking, we'd only consider working with you if you provided an apology and have your posts deleted. The biggest problem for you Joe, is that any credible person reading that post, who understands the industry and it's mechanisms, will right away understand where we are coming from. Once they take the time to research and see our obvious presence, the person that posted the message, and the fools that responded negatively without proof, will look like the "scammers". In the end, this stuff only hurts you, so for the future, a little advice...don't do it again.

Best,

KR

Me -

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Hi again,

I don’t dispute for a second that before now nobody has suggested that you’re not a legitimate company. I’m sure you are well respected. However your track record is anything but visible except what has been posted by yourselves. If you had presented evidence from other sources, such as write ups and articles, first-hand accounts from previous artists as well as their contact details to talk about the process musician to musician and other evidence corroborating your involvement with the more well-known names on your roster, then we would be in a much different position right now.
Transparency is key. I can appreciate that some members of the industry prefer anonymity, but you don’t present any facts about your involvement with major or indie labels or even their names.

Another case about transparency which illustrates my point perfectly:
“We researched your music with greater depth (our owner Eric included), listened to your entire catalogue available online (bandcamp, soundcloud, etc), Eric started mentioning you to various contacts and even tested you in a scene for the show he is producing that is being developed.”
If you had been up front and told me this, as well as had yourself and Eric give me (or the band) specific feedback about our music and how it would work in a media context rather than vague praise, again, you would probably have my money right now. However, this has all apparently taken place behind my back while I was still weighing up the pros and cons of going into business with you.
My last message was one confirming price because I was one message away from figuratively shaking hands with you, I decided to leave things and do some research of my own before going through with things.

I’ll now address the “ILoveFuzz” situation. First of all, if you genuinely think the site is one full of “wannabeez,” then why the concern? These are clearly people you have no interest in ever doing business with. Second, as far as a career goes, a number of professional musicians frequent the site; such as Brian Hamilton from Cymbals Eat Guitars (under his effects company Smallsound/Bigsound) and, in the thread you resurrected, Devin Townsend who may be one of the more influential people in non-mainstream metal (what with having founded Strapping Young Lad and The Devin Townsend Project). To be perfectly honest, what you’re saying about these people is far more slanderous than anything I had posted. As far as shutting the page down goes, I repeat: nothing I posted can be construed as slanderous or defamation. I posted under a right to free speech and to seek the opinions of others. They, in turn, cannot be sued for defamation as what they have posted was a reply to my message and a statement of their opinion on the matter rather than a fact. You have no legal ground to shut the page down but I’ll be chatting to Tom who owns the message boards to let him know you’re considering it.

As far as the web presence issue goes, even if we take the roster and other bands out of the equation, Marie Gervais should still be a ‘googleable’ name. If she has made ~$10,000 in licensing, then that means, regardless of it being a hobby, her music should be out there – or her name at the very least. Being licensed means exposure, the money is a bonus, so to have no trace of her in any form regarding any sort of media is either an incredibly stringent web team ensuring anonymity or something is off kilter.

“Your message was presenting facts, but your presentation sucked”
I could say the same about your company in terms of transparency and openness with other connections in the industry. It’s all very well to claim that you have them, but when there is no trace of them anywhere other than websites you manage yourself. If you were to provide links to corroborating claims on the websites of labels and companies, as I said earlier, that would be fine, but instead you insist on secrecy and anonymity for no real good reason. If you are trying to entice young bands into doing business with you, wouldn’t it be beneficial to show other companies/labels/bands saying good things about your business? At no point did I say I wanted anything for free – neither did anyone else in that thread. Rather, I merely asked if I would be getting something for my money. If I had not posted my concerns (which were not negative, or baseless, and presented in a neutral way), then I would not have got the opinion of numerous other musicians... including a very influential player in a particular genre. I have as much right to leave my post up as Marie does. Also, I would like to point out that she called me stupid, ridiculous, lazy and an idiot as well as threatening me about ‘talking smack’ whereas I, on the other hand, said that I had my reservations about the deal... while also stating that I thought it might be a good opportunity at the same time.

As for the contract, the very fact that you don’t take rights or a percentage is why it would be so essential to me for there to be one. If there is no written agreement that you will fulfil your duties for the money I pay out then you could just walk away with it. Now, again, this is not me accusing you of doing such a thing, it is just that you could legally do such a thing without a contract, and although I’m sure you’re honest, I would want utter assurance that my investment was working for me. You may be a delivery conduit, but a written agreement on the level of delivery in exchange for a sum of money would be a show of good faith.

If you don’t want to work with me anymore, that’s absolutely fine. However, I would love to see your obvious presence since numerous evenings spent researching by myself, my bandmates and my girlfriend came up with very little indeed, except this review (http://the-slow-show.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/music-to-kill-for.html). I would also like to know how in asking about any interactions with your company or whether going through with our deal would be beneficial – both honest questions which require some outside input – I could end up looking like a scammer.

I’ll be in touch with Tom to let him know you intend to shut the site down on no real grounds. People post far worse things about other business online all the time – if you’ve ever taken a look at Amazon reviews, you’ll understand. You can’t take someone to court or shut down a website because one of their members asked a question.

Finally, I’ll like to address your final sentence, which reads to me like something of a threat, which in turn is wholly unprofessional. Since you claim that the replies to my message on the thread are baseless, I could post our latest couple of Email exchanges as an example of your level of professionalism – which I would be well within my rights to do and breaking no laws in the process.

Regards,
Joe Ondrak

Minoan Music -

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Joe, I'm not even reading this. You've wasted enough of our time. Good luck.

As Tom said, I don't think they're properly illegal, but their business model appears to be to put out this compilation full of hopeful young bands who have paid for the exposure and pepper it with a couple of decent names who bring some legitimacy to the whole thing. They get picked up, the hopeful bands don't, they're out of pocket and Minoan Music can just say that 'it wasn't their time' or 'it wasn't right for the clients.' Not illegal, but paddling in the shady end of the pool.

[Chankgeez]

I think you handled that well, TheOndrakGuy, especially considering all the condescension being thrown around.

Discussion is almost always welcome, unless things aren't on the level.

[sonidero]

The owner Eric who's gonna be livid has a FB page that is today 1 month old...

[Pollinator95]

I love how she tries to write the email in the most professional way she can, yet still used 'wanabeez' and glaring gramatical errors. For some reason it just seems like they're trying desperately to prove to you how professional they are (and still not providing any references).

"Waah, when Eric finds out we'll both be in SO much trouble. You don't know what Eric's like when you hurt his little feelings."

[magiclawnchair]

Hey, wait a minute... I'm not scammy! How dare you besemerch Sir Carrot!!!

[Big Mon]

Hey, wait a minute... I'm not scammy! How dare you besemerch Sir Carrot!!!

[sonidero]

Hey, wait a minute... I'm not scammy! How dare you besemerch Sir Carrot!!!

So all I have to do a is make a Thread seemingly bad mouthing carrots and MLC will show up???