The what ever thread...

[warwick.hoy]

Do you mean the bell sounds? Are those Synths or actual Glockenspiels/Xylophones?

Fun fact,...the Theremin sounds you hear on Kid A and Hail is a Ondes Martenot.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy9UBjrUjwo[/youtube]

[unownunown]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe4AZRkFYE[/youtube]

Oh dear, that's sad considering that none of them see the real "black lifestyle" of most african americans.

[dubkitty]

perhaps a better way to phrase it is "none of them understand the real conditions urban black Americans have to face." i have similar feelings when i see affluent suburban kids flaunting their gangsta gear...i feel like saying "do you kids realize that a few miles up the road from here the shit you guys put around your necks and on your feet because you think it's a pretty little fashion show get people shot, lying in the street bleeding to death crying for their mama?" people think that they can put on someone else's culture like a hat, but culture doesn't work like that except on the most superficial level. that's cultural imperialism.

[warwick.hoy]

I'm with you on this one DK.

[Mudfuzz]

yall suckas never heard of ganguros befo--WHAT.

JAPAN.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzRTEJo9YYI[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjIukgKgLIU[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjnCrz-fBFw[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uzRNeij7DM[/youtube]

perhaps a better way to phrase it is "none of them understand the real conditions urban black Americans have to face." i have similar feelings when i see affluent suburban kids flaunting their gangsta gear...i feel like saying "do you kids realize that a few miles up the road from here the shit you guys put around your necks and on your feet because you think it's a pretty little fashion show get people shot, lying in the street bleeding to death crying for their mama?" people think that they can put on someone else's culture like a hat, but culture doesn't work like that except on the most superficial level. that's cultural imperialism.

different country.. they see just what they see in their media... and stuff... and it is japan... and stuff.. see above.

[dubkitty]

yes. but just because "it's Japan" doesn't mean it can't be weird, or creepy, or racist, as Japanese culture has notoriously been for hundreds of years towards other Asian racial subgroups (Chinese and Koreans most notably, most recently expressed in the Japanese policy of atrocity and enslavement in the 1931-1945 wars) and Caucasians. and let's not EVEN get into Japanese racism towards blacks, which is monumental.

[Mudfuzz]

yes. but just because "it's Japan" doesn't mean it can't be weird, or creepy, or racist, as Japanese culture has notoriously been for hundreds of years towards other Asian racial subgroups (Chinese and Koreans most notably, most recently expressed in the Japanese policy of atrocity and enslavement in the 1931-1945 wars) and Caucasians. and let's not EVEN get into Japanese racism towards blacks, which is monumental.

Yes/no... saying it's "Japan" sort'a sums all that all up you see.. it's like saying "it's America".. where you have to take in MLK and the KKK and all our other contrasts and bullshit you see.

[warwick.hoy]

FWIW; My "with you DK" comment was IN RE: White Kids who feel it's cool to appropriate black culture and fashion because they are too unoriginal to come up with their own style.

[bubstance]

people think that they can put on someone else's culture like a hat, but culture doesn't work like that except on the most superficial level. that's cultural imperialism.

Word.

[phantasmagorovich]

So Ganguro is a mix of Paris Hilton with Baron Samedi?

Culture is all about appropriation and misuse of stuff. So from that point of view it's not a bad thing to emulate something that is from another culture or simply alien. It might eventually evolve into something other than what it stemmed from and live on it's own as something else.

[Achtane]

So Ganguro is a mix of Paris Hilton with Baron Samedi?

[MEC]

yes. but just because "it's Japan" doesn't mean it can't be weird, or creepy, or racist, as Japanese culture has notoriously been for hundreds of years towards other Asian racial subgroups (Chinese and Koreans most notably, most recently expressed in the Japanese policy of atrocity and enslavement in the 1931-1945 wars) and Caucasians. and let's not EVEN get into Japanese racism towards blacks, which is monumental.

Weird?...a little, creepy?....maybe, racist?....I don't think so. I could see this a being offensive but I don't think it's racist.
It seems to be done as imitation of something that is thought of as "hip" or "cool" not as "I hate black people so much I'm going to dress like them".

Admittedly, Japan does have a pretty racist past but I don't think that translates into their youth culture of today.
However, not too long ago (60 years) the US put THOUSANDS of AMERICAN CITIZENS of Japanese descent into internment camps.
The US then dropped atomic bombs on Japan that killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS more Japanese people.
Still an American kid dressed in a style that reflects the Japanese culture without ever living what they have lived that doesn't qualify as racism either.

[Mudfuzz]

yes. but just because "it's Japan" doesn't mean it can't be weird, or creepy, or racist, as Japanese culture has notoriously been for hundreds of years towards other Asian racial subgroups (Chinese and Koreans most notably, most recently expressed in the Japanese policy of atrocity and enslavement in the 1931-1945 wars) and Caucasians. and let's not EVEN get into Japanese racism towards blacks, which is monumental.

Weird?...a little, creepy?....maybe, racist?....I don't think so. I could see this a being offensive but I don't think it's racist.
It seems to be done as imitation of something that is thought of as "hip" or "cool" not as "I hate black people so much I'm going to dress like them".

Admittedly, Japan does have a pretty racist past but I don't think that translates into their youth culture of today.
However, not too long ago (60 years) the US put THOUSANDS of AMERICAN CITIZENS of Japanese descent into internment camps.
The US then dropped atomic bombs on Japan that killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS more Japanese people.
Still an American kid dressed in a style that reflects the Japanese culture without ever living what they have lived that doesn't qualify as racism either.

I agree.

[unownunown]

yes. but just because "it's Japan" doesn't mean it can't be weird, or creepy, or racist, as Japanese culture has notoriously been for hundreds of years towards other Asian racial subgroups (Chinese and Koreans most notably, most recently expressed in the Japanese policy of atrocity and enslavement in the 1931-1945 wars) and Caucasians. and let's not EVEN get into Japanese racism towards blacks, which is monumental.

Weird?...a little, creepy?....maybe, racist?....I don't think so. I could see this a being offensive but I don't think it's racist.
It seems to be done as imitation of something that is thought of as "hip" or "cool" not as "I hate black people so much I'm going to dress like them".

Admittedly, Japan does have a pretty racist past but I don't think that translates into their youth culture of today.
However, not too long ago (60 years) the US put THOUSANDS of AMERICAN CITIZENS of Japanese descent into internment camps.
The US then dropped atomic bombs on Japan that killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS more Japanese people.
Still an American kid dressed in a style that reflects the Japanese culture without ever living what they have lived that doesn't qualify as racism either.

maybe an american kid dressed in a style that they believe reflects japanese culture or a japanese kid dressed in a way that they believe reflects american culture isn't of itself racist, but the culture that has allowed this to be so can obviously be. racism isn't really always as obvious as wearing blackface and shit. when an american sees like, say, a kimono in an anime or whatever they associate it with certain things. the kimono is a symbol, i mean, everything is really just a bunch of complex symbols. so like, in the matrix of japanese culture a kimono means all these culturally significant things and symbolizes them. in the matrix of american culture, it also means a lot of things, but because a kimono is not a part of american mainstream culture and japanese dress is not a part of mainstream american discourse it doesn't mean the same things. it's no longer a piece of traditional dress, to the american who just sees it and thinks it looks cool probably because of some sort of 'far east' fetishism and exoticism or whatever. so when the american wears the kimono, they're stripping it of its original meaning. it obviously can't symbolize the same things as it would in the web of japanese culture (be it mainstream japanese culture or the subculture of the japanese minority in the US). so it loses its meaning and it becomes a symbol of something else, most likely completely unrelated to the original meaning. so how does this relate to ganguro dress? well, ganguro girls think they're dressing like what they conceive to be black americans. an important part of black symbols are all of the dirty history of race relations in the US. so because the web of japanese culture doesn't include that, black symbols in japan are in a weird place. the history of blackness in america (or maybe even in japan, through this creepy sort of fetishization) is totally erased.

but yeah, NO ONE is ignorant enough (i hope) to argue that the US does not have some seriously troubling structural racism. but to say japan isn't battling many of the same things is kind of short sighted. (i mean seriously, what else are you expecting from one of the most racially homogenous countries in the world? just look up burakumin if you want a small taste.)

but yeah my major issue with dubkitty's original post was that it went straight to class issues instead of race issues. i know they both overlap, but you don't have to live below the poverty to know american racism.

edit: rereading dubkitty's post i read it a little incorrectly. but i'm taking the "affluent surbuban kids" as a way to imply some sort of dichotomy, probably with poor urban black kids. if i'm incorrect, sorry

[dubkitty]

in that particular example i guess class was also implied, but it wasn't intended; compared to inner-city kids of any race, most suburban people are gonna be relatively affluent unless you consider (for the Bay Area) Vallejo or Richmond to be a "suburb." but my point was intended towards the wholesale adoption of a different culture's dress, mannerisms, speech, etc. without an understanding of its basis, or in some case the impossibility of ever being able to BE part of that culture. e.g. the concept of a white Rasta is self-contradictory. i guess i could boil it down to "appreciate, don't imitate."