How to get vintage 60s/70s fuzz-funk sound?

[the dude]

Hi Board!

I´m new here, this is my first entry. I really like your board - there seem to be really a lot of funny and interesting people, with a lot of knowledge on ilovefuzz and I really enjoyed reading the entries up to now.
Now to the actual reason for this post:
As a record collector and fan of 60s/70s Funk in general and recently especially fuzz-funk (from all over the world with all kinds of cool instruments, like f.e. e-sitar, used) stuff, I started wondering how some of those beloved Breakbeat-sounds are created. First, I have to say that I´m quite unexperienced in guitar playing and "gear science" yet, but willing and able to learn.
I will give you some examples of the sounds I would like to create with my guitar (a Greco Les Paul Mint Collection - amp is a Hughes&Kettner blue edition-30W, the only effect I own up to now is a Dunlop Cry Baby):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W5TViSUlJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9mxKoEepr0 (especially listen to the part from 02:48 onwards!)

My (Nube- ) questions are: What kind of fuzz/effect should I use best to create these sounds (help please!, I somehow don´t think that traditional fuzzes like the Fuzz Face or Fuzz Factory can really create these sounds in an authentic way)? Would an amp modeler (like Line6-models) be a better solution? Do I necessarily need a tube amp to really get the feeling right or will my Hughes&Kettner suffice?
Also: What do you think, which effects/instruments (a Fender Telecaster and Gibson ES-335 (or so) are visible in the background picture of the video) were used to create the cool main riff used in Galt McDermot´s Natural Hair Bands´Ripped Open By Metal Explosions (I have really been trying to copy that for a long time - without real success, especially the kind of "hacked off" end of the notes he´s playing is a mystery to me):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prya-uVt0W0

So - I´m really looking forward to hearing your suggestions and thank you in advance!

thanks
Dude

[the dude]

another example for that badass-sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=466Uca3L_lo

[proroby]

The second video you posted (from 2:45 on) I get sounds like that from my 70s Fender Fuzz Wah. Also, you can get those sounds with just a wah pedal or even just a strat type pickup selector guitar, no pedal necessary.

Edit*If you're interested in learning how to play funk I'm sure there are tons of instructional videos out there, free ones on YouTube. I saw a pretty good one a long time ago, I think it was HotLicks video, the dude was bald and Australian.

[retinal orbita]

I know if you google the instruction manual for the Crybaby 535q wah pedal there's a section where they talk about different tones and one of them is Eddie Hazel from Funkadelic which is pretty much the definition of a fuzz funk sound......

[rbtr]

In my experience, get a lot of gain on the amp, but not a lot of volume from the guitar, so you have to pick harder, makes things sound pluckier (weaker pickups also do this), try and balance this to where the amp is just breaking up, after you turn down the guitar. I have found, in almost every case, every great funk song is not using as much gain as you think it is. And keep it nice and bright! You gotta work the wah, not just by rocking it back and forth, but like work it. It can hang still sometimes, pull it back more often than you push it forward, hard stops while you push it down, feel it out, work around the rhythms, create inner rhythms with the frequency sweeps. It more than bow chika wow wow, you know? Of course you do Don't be afraid to go bright, it's all about the toe end, use the heel for surprise. Keep it bright, keep it in the toe end, or tune your wah's treadle to stay brighter.

For thicker p-funk guitar stuff I usually use a nice slow shallow phaser after my big muff, in my case an electro-harmonix worm, but any phaser would work, just make sure it's subtle.

For solo's I stick to dorian scales and the blues scale. Can't go wrong, keep it simple.

Listen to, for some awesome wah work and awesome funk playing, Joe Walsh (The James Gang), and Terry Kath(Chicago, yea that's right). For further research Grand Funk Railroad and Prince.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgbWvsnqocA[/youtube]

Wah Wah yummyness starts around 2:00

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVLUFl6WO6E[/youtube]

The whole god damned song, the whole thing, Terry Kath was a fucking master. Seriously if you want to learn how to work a wah, go buy Chicago I, II, and III

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHUvhJufYwA[/youtube]

Some great dramatic sweeps in there. Also, not a ton of gain even though it sounds it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3gtzyn8s1c[/youtube]

No shit, funkiest asshole ever. It may not be the same style you want to play, and the guitar may be buried, but that shit is so funky that if it wasn't hidden you wouldn't have a face anymore and your mom would be pregnant. Listen and learn, cause if you want to learn about how a wah work, he's the guy. Also, rhythmically he can't be beat. This song's about Cindy Crawford btw, prince is a funny guy.




Anyways, that's the funk I lay down. Most people here don't from what i can tell, as every thread about wah's the consensus is "I don't want to go to funky town but like to use them for slow sweeps." I go straight to funky town and keep it there. I've got a snarling dogs super bawl whine o wah. Your cry baby should be fine, but there's a lot of little adjustments you could make if you aren't afraid to open it up and do some soldering, my first wah was a cry baby, and with a few mods it sounded nice until it broke.. As for fuzz, I mean, anything should be fine.. just don't got overboard.

Hope that's some help.

[nbabmf]

Prince

[rbtr]

Oh yea man

[devnulljp]

You need a Maestro FZ-1A for that kind of fuzz tone. (EDIT: esp. that first one)
A Super Fuzz or a Fuzzrite might do too, but it really sounds like a Fuzz-Tone to me.

Pretty much any wah, but the Maestro Boomerang is the Isaac Hayes/Shaft funky wah. Colorsound wah has a nice long sweep too -- best modern clone is the Teese Wheels of Fire.

[the dude]

@proroby: Thanks for the input. I already heard a lot about those Fender Fuzz Wahs. I know - there are a lot of instructions on funk playing style - but I´m not primarily interested in the techniques right now but in the sound creation. Also - I think in the case of funk one can get good results by just listening to the right records and fooling around with effects, wah and chords. Anyway, thanks for the hint about the Australian guy - I will look that up!
Peace
@retinal orbita: That´s interesting.I will definitely look that up!
@rbtr: Thanks for the good advice f.e. the high gain on the amp/low Volume on the guitar tip. I will try that out as soon as I have my amp here with me, it´s still at another place.
In general: I highly approve Sir! Keep it in funky town! You know, I think a lot of people never got to listen to the right records when it comes to funk. And I can understand that - because to know some stuff, like what I and you posted right here - you have to have above mainstream musical experience. It happened a few times recently that people who usually listen to kind of electronic stuff, Indie and "trash" really liked it when I played "my music", which consists of funk to a major part (the other part is psychedelic rock), at parties. I always have to laugh when people suddenly start to bounce and ask me what that is. And I tell them: This my friends is FUNK.
I already knew the music you posted with the exception of Prince . I happen to have Chicago 10 and 16 in my collection - they didn´t really attract my attention when I listened to them for the first time. But that doesn´t surprise me at all - like with a lot of bands it seems that their first records were their best ones and after that the funkiness and overall wickedness sloped downwards. It´s the same thing with U.F.O. if you know them - U.F.O. I+II with Mick Bolton on guitar have a unique style after they changed to Schenker they became a kind of heavy metal thing that´s not really interesting to me any more.
Concerning opening up the Crybaby: First I have to replace the broken Poti (bought it cheap on ebay) - after that I will see what happens. So - thanks a lot for the comment. Keep It Funky Man!
@devnulljp: I already heard about the Maestro pedals. Checked out their sound on several sites - interesting but not really what I´m searching for. Also checked out the Mosrite Fuzzrite already - that one is a lot more interesting.
Thanks A LOT for the hint that the Maestro Boomerang was used by Isaac Hayes´guys! Won´t forget that so fast. I´m still searching for the Shaft Soundtrack LP for a reasonable price .

So - nice up to now. I wonder what´s coming next.

[the dude]

Actually I have to correct myself concerning the SHAFT LP: the price is quite low in general. but I didn´t happen to stumble upon it up to now.

[rbtr]

Chicago got cruddy when Terry Kath died... Get those first three records, that's all you need. Chicago wanted to be the American equivalent to the Beatles, and I think that early on, in some ways, they were. Prince uses (used) a colorsound wah, which is different because there's also a slight volume swell in the sweep. Which means with a tube amp you'll get more breakup on the toe than on the heel. Which helps give the toe some extra bite.

Also if you've never heard it, you should find Herbie Handcock's Headhunters. That is, to me, the funk bible.

[the dude]

I see. Yeah - I know Herbie Hancock, he´s really funky.
To come back to effects: Somebody suggested me the Catalinbread Merkin Fuzz. I think it´s a really nice pedal for psych funk stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMe2Sfe8c9A

[solewheelin]

I saw this thread and the Merkin was the first pedal I thought of.
I think the Merkin will give you everything you want. well, it seems that way judging by the demos.
I bet Merkin>Montevillian sounds like melted butter on some nooks and crannies.

[dubkitty]

Foxx Fuzz Wah, perhaps?

[eti]

Since it hasn't come up yet; to get that sound, most of the time you want fuzz before wah.