guitar and synth into same chain: mixer solution?

[Errant Tiger]

So what I'd like to do is run my guitar and both of the stereo outs of my Yamaha Reface CS into my board at the same time. One of those synth outs can go to the second input of the Boss RC-3 (which is where the stereo part of the chain begins), so I was at first imagining something like a reverse A/B/Y box, with two ins and an out... then the idea of a mixer came up and I stumbled upon the Soundcraft Notebook series (particularly the 12FX, I think), which then got me thinking about using a mixer to record with (as opposed to my 2i2)... and then I got all confused and thought I should maybe just buy a few stereo pedals and make a miniboard for the synth.

I guess the question is really about running both instruments into the same chain (everything in series, no parallel loops or anything), and how to do that.

If it's not clear by now, I don't know shit about this stuff, so please tailor any technical details to a very basic level. Thank you!

Help?

[Bartimaeus]

it depends on whether you want to maintain the stereo outs of your yamaha. if not, then you can get a very simple 2-to-1 mixer. you can just use a boss ls2 on "a+b mix" mode. plug the guitar into A, the synth's mono out into B, and use the level knobs to mix them. or you can get something dedicated like the radial mix blender. a full mixer like the soundcraft is a bit overkill for this kind of thing imho.

now if you want to maintain a stereo synth sound, and want to make your guitar stereo as well, things get a bit more complicated. not many commercial pedal options directed at this, though i bet you could ask a smaller builder to make you a stereo mixer pedal for this purpose. if you want to maintain stereo you'll want a mixer with at least one set of stereo ins, and stereo outs. something like the mackie mix4 works, though i recommend something nicer like the 402vlz4, since the mix series isn't the most reliable.

[Errant Tiger]

it depends on whether you want to maintain the stereo outs of your yamaha. if not, then you can get a very simple 2-to-1 mixer. you can just use a boss ls2 on "a+b mix" mode. plug the guitar into A, the synth's mono out into B, and use the level knobs to mix them. or you can get something dedicated like the radial mix blender. a full mixer like the soundcraft is a bit overkill for this kind of thing imho.

now if you want to maintain a stereo synth sound, and want to make your guitar stereo as well, things get a bit more complicated. not many commercial pedal options directed at this, though i bet you could ask a smaller builder to make you a stereo mixer pedal for this purpose. if you want to maintain stereo you'll want a mixer with at least one set of stereo ins, and stereo outs. something like the mackie mix4 works, though i recommend something nicer like the 402vlz4, since the mix series isn't the most reliable.

Thanks, that is pretty much what I was wondering. Though it seems I can also maintain "enough stereo" from the synth by running one out into the 2-1 mixer and the other into the first pedal in the stereo part of the chain... yes?

Also: the Radial Mix Blender looks great. Stupid question: My chain has about 4-6 mono pedals before the stereo section. Is the "stereo" I would get from running both outs from the synth the same as I would get from running the mono out into the chain, as happens with the guitar?

Regarding the Mackie, I think maybe the 802vlz4 might be better, just because you never know how things might expand - more inputs are always good, I think, and it looks like the 402 only has one set of stereo ins/outs, which would still mean I'd have to choose between guitar and synth going in in stereo, right?

Sorry this is disjointed and possibly incoherent; I should have been asleep hours ago.

[Dowi]

Pladask Matrise for multiple routing options? You can sum up/split different channels to different outs, so there's a wide range of possibilities

[goroth]

Sell your synth.

[fcknoise]

Hm I guesss this is kinda what I am doing.

Synths + samplers + drum machines into various inputs on the mixer
Guitar -> pedalboard -> mixer
Mic -> mixer

Fxloop out -> metal zone + memory loss + RV2 -> either loop return or into a free input for feedbacklooping

Stereo out from mixer -> input 1+2 on soundcard

It would be better to mic the amp but I am not good at it

I use this mixer

[fcknoise]

However, for what you describe a simple ABY box would suffice.
Synth in -> |
| -> ABY box -> pedals and stuff -> soundcard
Guitar in-> |

[D.o.S.]

The only thing to keep in mind is that the levels are going to be very, very different between your synths and your guitar, so an ABY will work but make sure you have your levels dialled beforehand so you don't blow anything up (like your ears) when you go guitar to synths or wilt any enthusiasm with a very quiet guitar tone if you go synths>guitar.

[fcknoise]

The only thing to keep in mind is that the levels are going to be very, very different between your synths and your guitar, so an ABY will work but make sure you have your levels dialled beforehand so you don't blow anything up (like your ears) when you go guitar to synths or wilt any enthusiasm with a very quiet guitar tone if you go synths>guitar.

So:

Synth in -> |
| -> ABY box -> pedals and stuff -> soundcard
Guitar -> metal zone -> in-> |

Or a volume reducer on the synth chain perhaps

[Never]

Another plus of mixer over ABY is that you get three band EQing, as well as levels -- so you can cut the lows on guitar and highs on synth, for example, before they merge. Especially since you're running the second out of the synth into the second RC-3 input, that should give you some nice blending options. (I've done a lot of tricks like that with my RC-3, surprisingly useful! Great feedback loop tool, especially with heavily panned drum samples.)

I would probably do that with a small mixer and then put a medium gain/medium compression pedal first in the chain, so they can fight for prominence in the mono signal more aggressively

[Bartimaeus]

Thanks, that is pretty much what I was wondering. Though it seems I can also maintain "enough stereo" from the synth by running one out into the 2-1 mixer and the other into the first pedal in the stereo part of the chain... yes?

short answer: no. if you plug the output of the 2-1 mixer into the left input of a stereo pedal, and the synth's other output into the right input, then your guitar will become panned hard left. the stereo pedal doesn't send the guitar to both outputs if you have something plugged into both inputs. one way around this is to use two 2-1 mixers.

Stupid question: My chain has about 4-6 mono pedals before the stereo section. Is the "stereo" I would get from running both outs from the synth the same as I would get from running the mono out into the chain, as happens with the guitar?

it's hard to answer this one. i don't know how much stereo stuff your synth is doing. i'm sure the internal chorus effect will sound better in stereo, but it'll probably sound fine in mono. everything else may sound the same, but i can't say for sure.

personally, i'd probably just get a 2-1 mixer, stick it at the very start of my signal chain, and see how everything sounds using a mono synth output. with all those pedals, i think you can easily make for the loss of any of the synths internal stereo effects.

it looks like the 402 only has one set of stereo ins/outs, which would still mean I'd have to choose between guitar and synth going in in stereo, right?

that's wrong. see the "pan" knobs on the two 1-channel inputs? when set to the center, it will send the input to both left and right output channels at equal volume.

Edit: dis-regard that. you are correct, if you connected the synth to the stereo inputs, you couldn't connect the output of your stereo pedals to it. well, in a pinch you could plug the left output into channel one and pan it hard left, and do the opposite with channel two.

[Zork]

The Behringer MX400 is the smalles and easiest solution I can think of and if you buy it used it's about 10 bucks. A bit more pedalboard friendly is the red panda mixer. It runs on 9v and not 12v, but has 3 instead of 4 channels. It's much more expensive, though.

[retinal orbita]

Been toying with options like this for my bass / MS20 but the bass always sounds super shitty through my Mackie. I think I will have to spring for a DI of some kind before this becomes anything useable. But spending money on a DI seems like.... a real waste of fun money..... or a more modern mixer with a “guitar” option, mine is a little older.

[crochambeau]

I'm wary about digging into this subject because

I don't know shit about this stuff, so please tailor any technical details to a very basic level. Thank you!

1st, there is the fact that by and large synths and guitars inhabit two different plateaus in terms of average signal amplitude.

That should be resolved before bothering yourself with thoughts of mono versus stereo or any other number of rabbit holes we can fixate on in order to muddy the water.

My tactic, with regards to this puzzle piece, is to bring the lower level signal UP to something comparable to the line level values typically delivered by a synth/other active source.

Of course, this tactic is not for everyone - since a lot of effects pedals are tailored specifically to the lower levels found in guitars and object strenuously to being overfed. So - this is the point at which you, the only owner of your exact set-up, needs to decide which method of signal level normalization works best for you and the sound you're after. Do the synths come down? Does the guitar go up? A little of both? It's okay to be sloppy, but reaching this step CAN BE a quagmire of technical details.

For example:

Been toying with options like this for my bass / MS20 but the bass always sounds super shitty through my Mackie. I think I will have to spring for a DI of some kind before this becomes anything useable. But spending money on a DI seems like.... a real waste of fun money..... or a more modern mixer with a “guitar” option, mine is a little older.

I have found DI boxes to be of more use in padding or reducing large signals. If this were my puzzle I'd slap a preamp/boost/line amplifier of some sort on the bass prior to feeding the mixer. Mackie dirt is, in my opinion, terrible, so you want any thickener added before the mixer stage which I would set up as a clean as possible mix/sum network (leaving the gain aspect to external devices). I make this suggestion under the assumption that your shared effects chain is being fed from a Mackie send of some sort, and has therefore already been normalized for line level operation.

YMMV

So what I'd like to do is run my guitar and both of the stereo outs of my Yamaha Reface CS into my board at the same time.

Do you mean to play the two instruments simultaneously, or simply have a set up in which you can approach either instrument with minimal fuss?

If you're after minimal fuss, it may be helpful to think of your effects chain as an adaptive network. This is my way of saying that different instruments may benefit from different insert points. If you want your Yamaha to be stereo, patch it into the stereo stretch of things and let the mono stuff just act as a guitar ramp up to a signal level comparable to the synth. This can be achieved with a patch bay offering an insert point anywhere in your chain.

If, however, you're wanting to run the multiple instruments together simultaneously, a mixer is probably the optimal solution.

[dubkitty]

a decent mixer should give you a push switch for each channel to select line- or instrument-level for that input. this resolves the synth vs. guitar + pedalboard levels problem. your Tapco lacks that functionality, so i'd say a different mixer is required for a stable, dependable, repeatable solution. you don't want have to dial in the gain at every soundcheck or recording session. and you should be able to find a suitable replacement without getting too spendy.