Ergonomic guitars (Was: Buying/commissioning knockoffs)

[mathias]

Hi all. This thread could be about pedals, I suppose, but I’m talking about guitars here. Feel free to reply for whatever one you care about.

I know Fender and Gibson have been around forever and have the lawsuits against knockoffs to prove it, but I’m not worried about say, making Strat copies here. In fact, the guitar I built for myself is a Jazzmaster, but there may be no Fender parts on it. (Maybe the tuners? I’ve forgotten.)

For more original modern guitars, such as some of the headless metal guitars, what does everyone think about Chinese knockoffs on eBay or paying someone to build one to spec cheaper than the original company. Is it ethical? (I’ve found there’s a middle ground where decent quality copies can get built faster to spec in places like Taiwan.) Does the original creator of that shape or design deserve the money, or should anyone be able to copy anything and let the market decide? It seems like buyers would know the difference of what they’re getting, particularly for a $200-300 Chinese EBay knockoff of a $2.5k Guitar.

These are the things I’m thinking about lately.

[UglyCasanova]

I think shape/overall look is OK to copy, but once you start adding the fake fender decals and stuff you're in muddy waters.

[Jero]

I think shape/overall look is OK to copy, but once you start adding the fake fender decals and stuff you're in muddy waters.

This exactly. It's not like anyone is gonna come across that guitar shape and not know what it's supposed to be, but if someone tries to sell one as the real deal, that's fucked.

[mathias]

Yeah, this is more clones of very unique designs (Strandberg, Kiesel) and not so much trying to pass off a partscaster as vintage or original. I’m just not sure whether buying a cheap Chinese clone for kicks is just plain bad.

[Schlatte]

I think shape/overall look is OK to copy, but once you start adding the fake fender decals and stuff you're in muddy waters.

This exactly. It's not like anyone is gonna come across that guitar shape and not know what it's supposed to be, but if someone tries to sell one as the real deal, that's fucked.

Truth.


The main point is resale value, I think. You'll always get more on the flip if it's an original one, than with a copy. Although I don't know how the initial depreciation looks for either...

[mathias]

Alternatively, you could throw in other guitars that no one is going to mistake for the real thing — like handmade custom Languedocs for Trey Anastasia, and the Phred guitars that you can buy that have the same style/look.

[cosmicevan]

Much like the odor coming from a senior living space...it depends.

Agreed on trying to fake out others and trick people into thinking it's the real thing, but for things that are impossible to come by or impossible to come by at an affordable price (re Languedoc guitars cost $10k and good luck trying to get on that list - I've tried a few times w no luck) I think commissioning a copy is really your only option. If you do it for personal use, I don't think anyone can say anything...but if you are trying to sell it, I could see a cease & desist letter appearing depending on who you are copying, how much you are asking, where you are selling...etc. I think it's messed up to make a batch of copies and go live with them trying to undercut the original designer...but that's literally the definition of capitalism. I also take issue with people middlemanning (cough cough flipping) other people's work at a profit because the market will allow for a higher price. At least when you make a copy of something you are at least making it.

[coupleonapkins]

Yeah, this is more clones of very unique designs (Strandberg, Kiesel) and not so much trying to pass off a partscaster as vintage or original. I’m just not sure whether buying a cheap Chinese clone for kicks is just plain bad.

You can do what you want with your money (that's why they call it money), but it's always harder and harder to try to get that money into the hands of either the original creator (most are dead, or have moved on) or even a fair majority of it to the person who had the primary hand in actually building whatever it is and getting into yours.

If you're already questioning the ethics of doing something, why not go all the way and do the ethical thing for everyone involved? Does it mean buying a $2000 guitar from a local luthier who builds like a total boss but has a year-long waiting list, or does it mean buying a knock-off for $500 and waiting a week from UPS? Is the middle ground a slightly cost-cut version of what you want (like a Squier Affinity), or some sort of facsimile thereof? And if there is another slightly more expensive choice (probably buying something used, or having someone with more building skills create one from available parts), is that worth your money?

As this year has gone on, I've been trying to spend every cent with more awareness, and as frustrating at that can be, it's worth it for my mind to not have the burden of extending any more hardship than (hopefully) is possible. Capitalism will always be a failure in that respect, but I just want to appreciate who and what I can while we are all still spinning here.

[mathias]

That’s a good point about being more aware of where the money is going. I’ve been trying to support my favorite builders of pedals, etc, but haven’t extended this to getting a guitar built versus buying a guitar versus building my own from parts. (The most recent thing I’ve done is build my own from parts, and that was 4 years ago.)

I suppose there’s also more factors involved: do you actually like and want to support the original builder?

And the other thing that has crossed my mind is, what if the Chinese knockoff company gets a ceast-and-desist while they’ve got my money to build a knockoff? It seems very likely that even if their guitars are good and they have nice necks, nicely finished frets, and so on, I could still end up with no guitar. (There’s a lesser risk that the places with the 1 year wait list also may never finish my guitar order, which I’ve seen happen with certain builders from time to time on forums.)

[backwardsvoyager]

I think with e.g. a Strandberg it becomes a bit complicated because the neck profile and bridge hardware are as much of a trademark as the shape.
I've been contemplating buying one for a few years now, but have held off because they're near impossible to try in person, and paying $1500~2500 USD sight unseen for something made in an Indonesian factory that produces much cheaper guitars for other brands kinda irks me. So in that sense I'd definitely understand commissioning a knockoff.
If anything, having the ability to get a much cheaper version from someone else would probably make me more likely to purchase the real thing down the line.

[mathias]

There’s other features that are hard to find in person to try, too, and that makes me think trying the $400ish shipped guitar to try those features is a better idea than the $2k guitar — namely, headless and fanned frets. I’m not actually looking to play the kind of metal that these are typically used for. I’ve got some new pain complaints that makes me wonder whether a more ergonomic guitar would help me.

[Blackened Soul]

Oh, I'd kill you all for one.

but here is something fun
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uS-rdG5Y_o[/youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uS-rdG5Y_o he not like imbedding

[backwardsvoyager]

There’s other features that are hard to find in person to try, too, and that makes me think trying the $400ish shipped guitar to try those features is a better idea than the $2k guitar — namely, headless and fanned frets. I’m not actually looking to play the kind of metal that these are typically used for. I’ve got some new pain complaints that makes me wonder whether a more ergonomic guitar would help me.

Yep, totally with you there. I have wrist issues so the ergonomics were what turned me onto them.
I've had a Steinberger, and going headless wasn't a huge transition, but the shape of those is really uncomfortable imo (tend to hunch over more without an upper horn).

[mathias]

If I was getting into Strandberg new price territory, I’d start looking at some of my favorite one-person-shop builders. They might not be able to build something like the Endurneck or headless (although I know that Island Instruments makes a neat little headless giitar) but I think I’d rather be sending my money to them if I was I going to drop ~$2.5k

At this point, the $2.5k is theoretical and my needs to play guitar pain-free are immediate, so it just muddies the whole decision.

(Edit for clarification: I’m finding with some new injuries they even w/ relatively-small Strat body with the typical contours is making me uncomfortable, but in reflection I may have to start putting my right foot up on a stool or riser or something. The guitar being low means I hunch over it more, messing up my right shoulder. Meanwhile my left arm is low, messing up my left wrist, and the Strat doesn’t want to balance with an upward neck angle. I’ve been playing my Jazzmaster sitting primarily because it has the larger body, which raises the neck and doesn’t throw me into a weird hunched position. I’m not sure if the Strandberg-Type body in the “classical” position would help or not. And being headless (lighter) might mean it actually feels better to stand and play, too. Not sure.)

[Blackened Soul]

That's a though one. There have been attempts at ergonomic guitars for a while like Klein and Parker.


also there are other builders that use fanned frets.

there is also that twisted neck guitar that Lace built for a while..

Have you thought about putting a guitar on a stand?