16 sec. delay clones/workalikes

[shikawkee]

Eventide Rose is always listening, yes.

At the moment I use my El Capistan for my droney sound on sound recordings (10 seconds or 20 seconds lower quality), could you do the same with the Rose?

Absolutely, yes. I had the El Cap and loved it but I love the Rose more for this. More textured and "vibey" IMO.

[shikawkee]

This goes into the general mismatch of technology and typical musicians. Just because you have long delay lines doesn’t mean you’re Terry Riley or Robert Fripp. You actually have to have the creativity and compositional sense to put it to use, and to practice methods enough to pull it off. (And I don’t say this thinking I’m a guru on the top of the mountain. Far from it.)

+1 on this.
I've been trying to improve my sound on sound abilities in the last months, starting with just "short" delays (6 to 8sec) compared to the ehx 16sdd, but it requires a dedicated approach to compositions. Plus you absolutely have to be sure you're hitting the right note.

Yes, it's a very dangerous, and invigorating, thing to use long delays this way. Henry Kaiser, David Torn, Nels Cline, etc. and I love it but we're willing to live with whatever happens because yeah, you're stuck with it!

[JM Charcot]

Eventide Rose is always listening, yes.

At the moment I use my El Capistan for my droney sound on sound recordings (10 seconds or 20 seconds lower quality), could you do the same with the Rose?

Absolutely, yes. I had the El Cap and loved it but I love the Rose more for this. More textured and "vibey" IMO.

Nice, thanks Ed !

[zoooombiex]

FWIW, the 16SDD reissue can also do time-stretching, and can do pretty much everything the original can, though the workflow is sometimes different. They are a bit cheaper than the original 16SDD

The main difference -which has been discussed a lot- is that the 16sdd reissue is not always listening... Which is precisely why the original one is so incredible.

The 16SDD Reissue can do always listening, but the workflow is a bit different than the original version.

For the RI, you set a loop length, then set it to record, turn the feedback and output slider to min. At that point, it's constantly recording in the background, just like the original. Then to go into playback, you stop recording, and turn up the output slider. It'll loop whatever was in the memory at that point, just like the original.

You can do something similar on Blooper - record an initial empty loop, set repeats to zero, turn down the output volume, and then start overdubbing. When you stop overdubbing and turn up the output volume, it'll be playing back whatever was in the memory at that point.

The maneco doesn't do time-stretching, neither does Blooper (though it does other fx)

Wait... What do you mean exactly about the Manecco not doing time-stretching? Once something is looped, the time knob does not affect the loop?
EDIT: ok, I think I gotcha. you mean: with the feedback maxed out, you get infinite repeats, in that case, the time knob is modifying the loop. But once something is locked (loop), the time knob has no effect on the loop. Right?
Well that's no big deal actually, you can unlock the loop (it won't die since you have infinite repeats), play with the Time knob and lock it again...

Sorry for the confusion, by time-stretching I mean you can adjust the playback speed without changing the pitch. The 16SDD RI can do that, but the original (and the Maneco) can't.

[Christophe]

FWIW, the 16SDD reissue can also do time-stretching, and can do pretty much everything the original can, though the workflow is sometimes different. They are a bit cheaper than the original 16SDD

The main difference -which has been discussed a lot- is that the 16sdd reissue is not always listening... Which is precisely why the original one is so incredible.

The 16SDD Reissue can do always listening, but the workflow is a bit different than the original version.

For the RI, you set a loop length, then set it to record, turn the feedback and output slider to min. At that point, it's constantly recording in the background, just like the original. Then to go into playback, you stop recording, and turn up the output slider. It'll loop whatever was in the memory at that point, just like the original.

You can do something similar on Blooper -

I hear you bro, and I'm sure the RI is great, but still, the workflow you're describing is a totally different thing from the original. In your decription, you have to plan ahead that you'll be looping something. And if you turn your feedback to 0, it means you can't use your pedal, right? It's just there, ready for you to bring it back up.
The original is a different thing completely:
you just do nothing, your 16s delay is there if you need it, like any other pedal, and then, if you suddenly want to loop the thing you just played, you hit the infinite switch and that's it. You dont have to prepare a trick in advance, cos there's just a dedicated footswitch for that; it's like having 2 pedals so to speak. That's the beauty of it: you just use your rig, as usual, and you have that "hidden" option that at any moment, if the idea pops up in your mind, you can bring back from the past something you've played and you had no idea it was going to be a loop...
Same thing with Blooper: you can set it as a long delay, turn the volume knob down, and just bring the volume back up when you want a loop; but the problem is you can't use Blooper in the meantime for something else...
That thing is truly unique...

[zoooombiex]

FWIW, the 16SDD reissue can also do time-stretching, and can do pretty much everything the original can, though the workflow is sometimes different. They are a bit cheaper than the original 16SDD

The main difference -which has been discussed a lot- is that the 16sdd reissue is not always listening... Which is precisely why the original one is so incredible.

The 16SDD Reissue can do always listening, but the workflow is a bit different than the original version.

For the RI, you set a loop length, then set it to record, turn the feedback and output slider to min. At that point, it's constantly recording in the background, just like the original. Then to go into playback, you stop recording, and turn up the output slider. It'll loop whatever was in the memory at that point, just like the original.

You can do something similar on Blooper -

I hear you bro, and I'm sure the RI is great, but still, the workflow you're describing is a totally different thing from the original. In your decription, you have to plan ahead that you'll be looping something. And if you turn your feedback to 0, it means you can't use your pedal, right? It's just there, ready for you to bring it back up.
The original is a different thing completely:
you just do nothing, your 16s delay is there if you need it, like any other pedal, and then, if you suddenly want to loop the thing you just played, you hit the infinite switch and that's it. You dont have to prepare a trick in advance, cos there's just a dedicated footswitch for that; it's like having 2 pedals so to speak. That's the beauty of it: you just use your rig, as usual, and you have that "hidden" option that at any moment, if the idea pops up in your mind, you can bring back from the past something you've played and you had no idea it was going to be a loop...
Same thing with Blooper: you can set it as a long delay, turn the volume knob down, and just bring the volume back up when you want a loop; but the problem is you can't use Blooper in the meantime for something else...
That thing is truly unique...

Yeah, they're definitely different workflows, though it's not quite as different as might first appear.

With the original, you are still technically "preparing" the pedal in advance because you are still setting a pre-set loop length with the sliders - just like with the RI. Put another way, both pedals only infinite loop the amount of material corresponding to the loop length set with the sliders.

Also, with the RI you can still use the pedal while recording like you can with the original - the feedback at 0 was just to describe a silent listening scenario. If you put the feedback above 0 you can use it as a delay (like the original), and then whenever you stop recording it's effectively the same as hitting "infinite."

So the key workflow difference is that you have to hit "record" first on the RI. The original is always recording by default, so you hit infinite to turn off recording.

That said, I don't have a dog in the hunt if people have a preference between the two. I personally value the time-stretching on the RI more than the different workflow, but I've been using the RI a long time so the workflow is normal to me.

Also, there's one other difference that's semi-relevant. I can't remember the button sequence on the RI but you can be using it as a delay and then make it play back everything in the entire memory buffer regardless of the loop/delay length. IIRC, it's really long - like a few minutes. But I need to refresh myself on how that works.

By contrast, the blooper workflow and functionality is a few more steps removed. Unlike the 16SSD, you have to set an initial loop length in real-time (not via sliders). Also, once a loop length is set you can't change it (while changing the pitch changes the speed of playback, the loop length itself remains fixed). But in a broader sense the result is the same - you can be using it as a delay (including with the built in mods), and then with one press you can turn whatever the delay material was into an infinite loop.

[mathias]

Watching Nels Cline just loop something that he wants is like watching a mad scientist in his lab. I’ll always remember that “I have fun wherever I go” quote when he loops something strange in that video on YouTube.

[Scruffie]

I have an original 16s I just repaired for a customer and will have it for a couple of weeks if anyone has any questions about it

[oscillofuzz]

A while back I dreamt up a splitting/mixing scheme in another thread, that would split the instrument's signal before the delay (that would always be on), and then merge what's coming out of the delay with the dry signal with a footswitchable mixer or something so any long delay could be made to always listen in the background and then be activated to also be heard via the a/b/y or something. I think this should be possible in 1 box nowadays with the GigRig Wetter Box if you use mix mode, leave loop A empty, put your long delay in loop B at full wet, and then mix it in with an expression pedal to hear repeats of what you just played over the last X seconds. I say should because I haven't tried it myself yet, and there aren't any demos available that really showcase this possibility, except for like a split second (around 2:34) in this one that hints at that it should be possible: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAIPF52Bh0Y[/youtube]

[shikawkee]

A while back I dreamt up a splitting/mixing scheme in another thread, that would split the instrument's signal before the delay (that would always be on), and then merge what's coming out of the delay with the dry signal with a footswitchable mixer or something so any long delay could be made to always listen in the background and then be activated to also be heard via the a/b/y or something. I think this should be possible in 1 box nowadays with the GigRig Wetter Box if you use mix mode, leave loop A empty, put your long delay in loop B at full wet, and then mix it in with an expression pedal to hear repeats of what you just played over the last X seconds. I say should because I haven't tried it myself yet, and there aren't any demos available that really showcase this possibility, except for like a split second (around 2:34) in this one that hints at that it should be possible: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAIPF52Bh0Y[/youtube]

Seems possible from that clip.

[Christophe]

Yeah, they're definitely different workflows, though it's not quite as different as might first appear.

With the original, you are still technically "preparing" the pedal in advance because you are still setting a pre-set loop length with the sliders - just like with the RI. Put another way, both pedals only infinite loop the amount of material corresponding to the loop length set with the sliders.

Also, with the RI you can still use the pedal while recording like you can with the original - the feedback at 0 was just to describe a silent listening scenario. If you put the feedback above 0 you can use it as a delay (like the original), and then whenever you stop recording it's effectively the same as hitting "infinite."

So the key workflow difference is that you have to hit "record" first on the RI. The original is always recording by default, so you hit infinite to turn off recording.

Ah ah! I guess someone needs to make a video to show the differences between the two... There was a thread on tgp about this and people couldn't solve the case...
I have an original 16s delay and a Blooper.
From what I understand, the RI works great for what you need, so the differences with the original are irrelevant.
And if we talk about sound on sound, then yes, original, RI, or Blooper are perfect for that.
But other than that, the workflow induced by the pedal's design is crucial. You've described it perfectly, the original "records continuously by default". That's where the difference is. The original is mainly a delay, with the ability to lock whatever you're already hearing into a loop. The on/off footswitch rather works like a "mute" footswitch. You have no control on your loop's starting point. Chance decides. On the Manecco looper you have a toggle switch to set the pedal on "always listening" mode, so that shows there's a difference. On the other hand, among all its features, the RI turned the 16s into a phrase looper, adding the rec footswitch (I guess this was made to make it appealing to musicians looking for that kind of looper).
So it's a different workflow and a different state of mind when you play. It all depends on what you're trying to achieve. According to what Eivind is looking for here, it seems like the original 16s or the Manecco would fit best, as a go-with-the-flow/on the fly/no brainer delay.
Along the same lines, I can't do with Blooper what I can do with the original 16s. They're just not designed the same way. (nothing wrong with that, the Blooper is fantastic).
That's precisely what is baffling me; the workflow that the original 16s offers is still unique to this day. Or you have to buy a clone. (By the way, I believe this is why it is incredibly expensive on the used market; had the RI been an exact rendition of the original, it would have brought the prices down, just like it did with the DMM reissues: the DMM RI share the same price tag with the originals...)
Fortunately, with a pcm42 rendition in the works (according to this thread), and new groundbreaking pedals like Blooper, we might get more unusual loopers in the near future, that's good news.

[Seance]

...no idea what a PCM42 is.

The Lexicon PCM42
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9TGWIAXgU4[/youtube]

[chromandre]

I have an original 16s I just repaired for a customer and will have it for a couple of weeks if anyone has any questions about it

hows the headroom on it? and when you hit it, does it distort in a pleasing way?

[Christophe]

I have an original 16s I just repaired for a customer and will have it for a couple of weeks if anyone has any questions about it

hows the headroom on it? and when you hit it, does it distort in a pleasing way?

I checked this morning. No headroom issue here... It takes dirt well and does not distort... it's digital so it behaves like a Boss DD for instance, you can't really push the repeats into clipping.
(As a side note, the vibrato on the 16s is amazing...)

I've also spent some time with the DOD dfx94, super cool! Darker than a DD, level knob only affects the repeats so your dry sound is always there (which is fine I don't use 100% wet delay).
And so it is always-listening; meaning you have the last 4 seconds of playing available if you turn it on (footswitch = mute). You can then lock it by turning the knob to infinite repeat mode, (and modify pitch with the time knob), and even take the same loop to trig mode to use it as a sample. (these 3 modes communicate with each other. Too bad the other 3 modes don't, like a ps2 where the buffer is not emptied when switching modes).
-the infinite mode is there also because in normal delay mode, even with the feedback knob full clockwise, the repeats will eventually fade out.
It's a great for weird looping, time-bending, and playing rhythms with a sample. But not the stutter type, you can't do the dd3/5 tricks with it...
Simple, but super inspiring pedal.

[chromandre]

I have an original 16s I just repaired for a customer and will have it for a couple of weeks if anyone has any questions about it

hows the headroom on it? and when you hit it, does it distort in a pleasing way?

I checked this morning. No headroom issue here... It takes dirt well and does not distort... it's digital so it behaves like a Boss DD for instance, you can't really push the repeats into clipping.
(As a side note, the vibrato on the 16s is amazing...)

I've also spent some time with the DOD dfx94, super cool! Darker than a DD, level knob only affects the repeats so your dry sound is always there (which is fine I don't use 100% wet delay).
And so it is always-listening; meaning you have the last 4 seconds of playing available if you turn it on (footswitch = mute). You can then lock it by turning the knob to infinite repeat mode, (and modify pitch with the time knob), and even take the same loop to trig mode to use it as a sample. (these 3 modes communicate with each other. Too bad the other 3 modes don't, like a ps2 where the buffer is not emptied when switching modes).
-the infinite mode is there also because in normal delay mode, even with the feedback knob full clockwise, the repeats will eventually fade out.
It's a great for weird looping, time-bending, and playing rhythms with a sample. But not the stutter type, you can't do the dd3/5 tricks with it...
Simple, but super inspiring pedal.

yeah! I got some of those too!



PDS8000 had all the same features and caveats just you know 8 seconds instead of 4...my absolute dream pedal wouldve just been a PDS8000 with reverse, don't think I can afford a vintage EHX16second but I jumped on blooper.