Top Mounted Everything! And RRR v2 discussions!

[backwhenIwascool]

Hey Ryan, I forgot to mention something that is necessary(IMO) when you have an FX loop.

You need to include a switch that (according to my friend Jim from R3FX.com) is an easy install. The switch chooses between a DRY or WET effects loop. What this means is:

DRY fx loop = wet signal is run through the fx loop once and is combined with dry signal before the output.

WET fx loop = wet signal is run through the fx loop repeatedly as the signal decays.

EXAMPLE: Octave pedal in the loop -
Dry loop - reverb goes through octave once and comes out +1 octave, then decays as such. Very practical and controllable.
Wet loop - reverb goes through octave, then the signal is split - one is combined with output and the other is combined with wet signal PRE fx loop then the signal goes back through the loop again and the signal (which is now original+1 octave) goes up another octave.....and so forth. This is harder to controll, but the possibilities are awesome especially with things like chorus in the loop. The signal keeps getting more and more "chorus-ed" as it decays.

That's it - a WET/DRY toggle switch for the FX loop.

Ryan I know you already know this, but I felt it was a necessary option and a necessary bit o' information.

Thanks!

[gururyan]

I don't know, it is starting to sound like us fanatical, esoteric, reverboholics are getting a little carried away with our demands from a 2-man/woman operation without unlimited budgets. I would absolutely LOVE an effects loop as well as some of the other over-the-top suggestions, but I can't help but wonder if we are getting carried away. Ryan & Co. have to make money off these, which means sales. If we ask him to create some massive end-all reverb that only the extreme weirdos like ourselves will buy, he loses and we win. I don't know that many players that would go for such a monstrous feature-heavy reverb. Putting my selfish desires aside, I vote for the options that Ryan has already deemed "critical" which are already a massive upgrade from the original and mini RRR's and let him get these babies pumped out to the masses. Maybe down the line he would finally have time to do some custom shop jobbies for the hardcore fans such as ourselves where we could request dual exp. jacks, wet/dry effect loops, photocells, etc. one-off pedals to appease our fanatical desires.

[backwhenIwascool]

For the record. Photocells on a Reverb pedal?! No!!! never!

[Ryan]

I don't know, it is starting to sound like us fanatical, esoteric, reverboholics are getting a little carried away with our demands from a 2-man/woman operation without unlimited budgets. I would absolutely LOVE an effects loop as well as some of the other over-the-top suggestions, but I can't help but wonder if we are getting carried away. Ryan & Co. have to make money off these, which means sales. If we ask him to create some massive end-all reverb that only the extreme weirdos like ourselves will buy, he loses and we win. I don't know that many players that would go for such a monstrous feature-heavy reverb. Putting my selfish desires aside, I vote for the options that Ryan has already deemed "critical" which are already a massive upgrade from the original and mini RRR's and let him get these babies pumped out to the masses. Maybe down the line he would finally have time to do some custom shop jobbies for the hardcore fans such as ourselves where we could request dual exp. jacks, wet/dry effect loops, photocells, etc. one-off pedals to appease our fanatical desires.

Thank you very much you voice of reason you! I think we're getting pretty carried away with creeping featurism and esoteric features that just aren't going to appeal to the average customers in stores... it's fun to ponder some of these features but the more I talk with a wide range of users about these features the more I think we've wandered a little far off the path of exactly what this RRRv2 needs to be. It's most important the pedal appeals to general reverb users, not the most advanced, creative, and experimental noise makers. Sorry you advanced, creative, experimental noise makers you.

The impression I can't help but get is this: 1590BB size, stereo in and out, decay control, global modulation, expression for mix. I like this and I think this would sell well and be a cool upgrade over the minis.

For the record. Photocells on a Reverb pedal?! No!!! never!

This seems like a weird statement to me.. care to elaborate? For the record?

One vactrol is for the modulation, the other 4 vactrols do stereo mix of two separate channels with a single 10k pot or pretty much any expression pedal.. it's slick as heck if you ask me.

[backwhenIwascool]

Ok elaborating.

So, to me vactrols/photocell expression (IMO) is/are for noise. And that is the farthest thing from what I want to make with this pedal. I want tweakable soaring ambience on crstal seas of heavenly bliss. Not warbley quirks of dissonant noiseyness. Photocells are completely random and they never work the same in any environment (which I am sure people will say "That's why I like it"). I think photocells work great with Fuzz pedals, circuit bent devices and feedback loopers, but not with pretty yum yum reverb! (IMO) All this, of course, is my opinion - didn't mean to offend, but I think everything ELSE that we have mentioned for the RRR v.2 is totally necessary and practical (well maybe not practical ).

Again, I know that tons of people are going to chime in and say "I want the crazy...." and "I want the noise...." or "I like the random...." but not me. I apologize for any offense, I really should have been a little more humble with my initial statement, but I guess I am zealous for my dream reverb!

[gururyan]

Funny how a quick, passing, random thought interjected into a thread post can cause an offshoot like my photocell mentioning. For the record, I wouldn't want a photocell on my reverb either.

So Ryan, hopefully this has catapulted the RRRv2 further down the R&D line by bypassing features no longer relevant. Can I expect one by next week?
I kid, obviously, but at least now I can begin my DIY graphics since I know which housing and basic layout you will be going with. If you feel pretty certain then about the prototype's layout/controls, could you identify them I may begin my painfully slow process of design?

[Gunner Recall]

As long as it's new, I want it.

http://z0r.de/1421

[Jack Deville]

Umm....

Photo-resistive elements ≠ noise.
While many designers have used photo-resistive elements in circuits designed to make noise and maintain a level or "randominity,", many designs feature photo-resistive elements as circuit controls (i.e. channel switching in LOTS of 80's amplifiers, countless stable tremolo/phaser/other-modulation circuits), signal routing and numerous controlled and occasionally precise applications. They can be very useful for indirectly controlling/routing/augmenting a signal/control path.

Good opto-sensors have their drawbacks: expense. Both monetary and physical. Good opto-sensors/photo-resistive elements do no come cheap or small.
Whatever. YMMV.

[backwhenIwascool]

Umm....

Photo-resistive elements ≠ noise.
While many designers have used photo-resistive elements in circuits designed to make noise and maintain a level or "randominity,", many designs feature photo-resistive elements as circuit controls (i.e. channel switching in LOTS of 80's amplifiers, countless stable tremolo/phaser/other-modulation circuits), signal routing and numerous controlled and occasionally precise applications. They can be very useful for indirectly controlling/routing/augmenting a signal/control path.

Good opto-sensors have their drawbacks: expense. Both monetary and physical. Good opto-sensors/photo-resistive elements do no come cheap or small.
Whatever. YMMV.

Hmmmm.....I have been wrong before. Thanks for the info dude.
So, I heard that the modulation in the Skreddy Echo is controlled by an LED....circuit...thing...is that similar?

Now that I think of it. If Ryan thinks it's good enough to go in the pedal, well folks - it must be pretty sweet.

[gururyan]

Ok, so two things just hit me. First, I don't see a short/long toggle on the RRRv2. Is that because now one pot can take the entire range? You're going to have to excuse my ignorance under the hood, I just drive cars, I don't work on them. Secondly, I guess adding the brick (or some custom made variant) for spring reverb was dropped sometime ago?

[Jack Deville]

Hmmmm.....I have been wrong before. Thanks for the info dude.
So, I heard that the modulation in the Skreddy Echo is controlled by an LED....circuit...thing...is that similar?

Now that I think of it. If Ryan thinks it's good enough to go in the pedal, well folks - it must be pretty sweet.

Modulation in the Skreddy Echo is controlled via an LED directly facing a photo-resistor.
From memory (you'll have to verify this with the designer), a phase shift oscillator drives the LED, which in turn controls the resistance of the photo-resistive element that is tied into the clock circuit. A variable resistance is placed in series with the LED. This resistance limits current through the LED and thus the "intensity" of the change in delay time (modulation), accomplished by increasing/decreasing a critical resistor in the clock circuit. (Does that sentence contain redundant statements?) Countless tremolo designs feature similar execution applied toward signal amplitude in one form or another.
Pros: relatively simple to implement, relatively low parts count
Cons: current hungry, environmentally sensitive

Hope you find this information useful.

[Ryan]

Ok elaborating.

So, to me vactrols/photocell expression (IMO) is/are for noise. And that is the farthest thing from what I want to make with this pedal. I want tweakable soaring ambience on crstal seas of heavenly bliss. Not warbley quirks of dissonant noiseyness. Photocells are completely random and they never work the same in any environment (which I am sure people will say "That's why I like it"). I think photocells work great with Fuzz pedals, circuit bent devices and feedback loopers, but not with pretty yum yum reverb! (IMO) All this, of course, is my opinion - didn't mean to offend, but I think everything ELSE that we have mentioned for the RRR v.2 is totally necessary and practical (well maybe not practical ).

Again, I know that tons of people are going to chime in and say "I want the crazy...." and "I want the noise...." or "I like the random...." but not me. I apologize for any offense, I really should have been a little more humble with my initial statement, but I guess I am zealous for my dream reverb!

Alex, I figured you were thinking something crazy about photo-cells! *smile* (no offense intended there)

Photocells are awesome and they get used a lot as control elements. It's just a special kind of resistor that the value of changes depending on the light shining on it. It's a really useful analog hack actually, a great way to either modulate a resistance or isolate a resistance.. they're one of those things that you can keep coming up with uses for if you just keep thinking about it.

I use a photocell in the SDD and the Tremolessence, much like Jack describes. In the SDD the photocell modulates the resistance to ground that sets the delay time for the delay chip, providing the warble sound. In the Tremolessence the photocell's varying resistance is what provides the tremolo effect.

In the RRRv2, one photocell is being used just like in the SDD, modulating a resistance that sets a timing signal. That's how I get global modulation of the reverb patches, by using a triangle waveform to raise and lower the voltage to the LED which raises and lowers the resistance of the photocell and thus raises and lowers the digital timing signal... and voila, modulated reverb.

The other 4 photocells are for stereo mix. Stereo mix with expression control is kind of an annoying problem... it would be easy to use a dual ganged pot for stereo mix control, but there's no dual ganged expression pedals that can take over that job. I set up a mix control using 2 LM13700 OTAs as voltage controlled amps, one for each channel, and it worked well with a single pot and a wide variety of expression pedals but I felt that running the audio signals through the OTAs really compromised their tone and added a lot of noise.

So I went with a really simple solution, vactrols... 2 vactrols per channel provide for stereo mix with a single potentiometer, it's easy breezy and only requires the vactrols, a pot, and a resistor to power.

The negatives are definitely what Jack said, the vactrols aren't cheap and they aren't small and they aren't low power, but shoot, the RRRv2 ain't gonna be cheap or small or low power. *smile* I think they're a great solution and they aren't unpredictable or of random values, they're actually really predictable and well behaved. I've measured lots of the Vactec ones I'm using in the RRRv2 and the results have been really consistent, which is really important.

Jack would have done the RRRv2 stereo mix in a different way I betcha.. using a micro and digital pots maybe? But he's got cleverer tricks up his sleeve than me! For me the vactrols are simple and powerful, they do exactly what I need done and they do it well within my realm of comfort.

Ok, so two things just hit me. First, I don't see a short/long toggle on the RRRv2. Is that because now one pot can take the entire range? You're going to have to excuse my ignorance under the hood, I just drive cars, I don't work on them. Secondly, I guess adding the brick (or some custom made variant) for spring reverb was dropped sometime ago?

Decay control on a knob has always been something I wanted to do with the RRRv2 and I've got a system working well on the breadboard using a neat little CMOS square wave oscillator running from 5MHz to 12MHz. It covers a little more range than the toggle switch of the miniberators or the old RRRs. I also have yet to test this system in a boxed up pedal... it has some touchiness details on the breadboard that I'm hoping will go away with a proper and well ground planed pcb.

As for the Belton brick, I did experiment with them.. and I experimented with my own spring reverb simulation using digital delay chips, but I just didn't love the results with either. Plus the addition to the circuit in terms of component count and complexity with either method was more than I thought was reasonable. I decided it was best to let the RRR shine at what it was good at and deck it out with features that made it more powerful/versatile.

[backwhenIwascool]

Ryan you are awesome. Totally awesome.
I just got schooled by the Doctor! Sweet.

I really do think its cool having better insight into these things.
Thanks Ryan, right after I said what I said I knew you would totally prove me wrong, and in an amazingly scientific yet humble manner.

[Ryan]

Discussing this stuff is awesome, Alex, I'm glad we get to do it too.

I was thinking, maybe today we'd have a little chat about stereo. Stereo effects usage. I've been asked for a stereo Reverberator lots over the years, well once a month kinda thing I guess, but regularly anyway... I've been wondering lately, how do people want to use a stereo pedal?

Do you want to take two patch cords, a left and a right, from the output of some stereo thing, and run that into the Reverberator, and then take two more patch cords and plug them into another stereo effect or two amps? Is that how we'd all use a stereo pedal? What stereo source would people be using in their pedal chain? I can't think of many effects that have 2 inputs and 2 outputs. Is it more about recording or studio use than live pedal board playing?

Are the dual inputs and separate paths what's so important or is it more about just having a second output to run to a second amp?

I'm wondering this stuff because the more I think about it the more I want to use the small box... and the further I think about it the more I want to add the effects loop and the buffered bypass option. Losing the two separate channels would make some things about the circuit way easier to work with.. I could lose the 4 vactrols and go back to a regular mix knob, lose a whole bunch of components and 3 dual op-amps... it would just free up space for the effects loop and maybe even the buffered bypass in the small size box... cut a lot of expense from the pcb too, make the pedal easier for us to get in production, easier for yous to buy.

So when people want a stereo pedal, you think they maybe just mean that they want a second output, maybe out of phase or something, to send to a different amp or effects chain? Maybe they don't actually want 2 inputs and separate left and right audio paths?

[backwhenIwascool]

So yeah, personally I don't have two amps and I love "the idea" of stereo, but I am not in the studio EVER (been....5+ years) and I don't see when I would ever get to use that option. Also, I own software that does a multitude of sweeeeet stereo divide effects in Ableton if I ever needed it.

My delay pedal has stereo ins and outs, so does my other reverb, but I don't use them. I wish they were expression inputs or maybe effects loops, etc...

I like the idea of the pedal being smaller, heck I also like the idea of the pedal being huge, I guess I just like reverb pedal ideas.

So that's about it, if the pedal is stereo, great - but I'm not going to ever utilize it.

However, I do want (an plan on using) every other feature mentioned!

And I love the idea of the pedal being a little less pricey. ( )