After this's all over, I hope the U.S. gov't bills Trump for the damage he's done to our reputation

[psychic vampire.]

The problem, Rusty, is that line of thought is often just defensiveness masquerading as "what's normal." And who is determining normalcy? You like comedy. I do too. But also, i don't really love it when shows or movies or comedians have extended jokes about trans women and how disgusting we are, and how we just exist to deceive men and trick them into being gay. I like making these jokes about myself sometimes in the company of close friends, but i don't really love hearing people who haven't pumped their bodies full of estrogen and cut off their genitals (because it was literally that or suicide) make these jokes, for what feel like obvious reasons. i'm a materialist about these things, to my own horror: actions and lived experiences matter a lot to me.

There is a reality that there are people in this very country whose lives and everyday experiences are vastly different than your own. And this isn't to say that you don't have it hard, just that people have it different but they all still deserve respect and basic decency. You say that Political Correctness feels like fascism, i would say living in a world where i'm in pretty constant fear feels it's own kind of bad. I dislike the discourses of social justice, i think there's a lot going on there that i really disagree with, but we can separate people's demands for respect and dignity from the devolution of certain segments of the reformist left, yes? And sometimes this might mean recognizing that the alarming number of people who get away with murdering black men says something about our country's fucked up relationship with race and blackness. And sometimes it might mean that there's nothing wrong in theory with one person not loving another person's voice, but when massive amounts of people of all genders agree about hating women's voices, maybe there's something deeper going on there.

[psychic vampire.]

Also worth remembering that structures of power are usually invisible to the people who benefit from it. At the same time, i am wary of social justice discourses that seek to lay the blame for the ways these powers enact themselves upon people at the feet of individuals, when the real problem is we exist in a world where it is to the benefit of people who possess power to continue dividing people into categories of who's more and less shit-on-able, but that's another thing.

[gnomethrone]

you damn kids get off rusty's heteronormative lawn
also i'm drunk n sleepy but i just wanna say vocal fry & uptalking are the most dulcet of speech patterns. it warms my heart to hear people embrace the graceful flow of my regional dialect. please read all my posts in the voice of keanu reeves smoking a doobie in a chevy el camino with jeff spicoli and michelangelo of the teenage mutant ninja turtles.
ok good niiGHTT <heavy fry>

[snipelfritz]

The problem, Rusty, is that line of thought is often just defensiveness masquerading as "what's normal." And who is determining normalcy? You like comedy. I do too. But also, i don't really love it when shows or movies or comedians have extended jokes about trans women and how disgusting we are, and how we just exist to deceive men and trick them into being gay. I like making these jokes about myself sometimes in the company of close friends, but i don't really love hearing people who haven't pumped their bodies full of estrogen and cut off their genitals (because it was literally that or suicide) make these jokes, for what feel like obvious reasons. i'm a materialist about these things, to my own horror: actions and lived experiences matter a lot to me.

There is a reality that there are people in this very country whose lives and everyday experiences are vastly different than your own. And this isn't to say that you don't have it hard, just that people have it different but they all still deserve respect and basic decency. You say that Political Correctness feels like fascism, i would say living in a world where i'm in pretty constant fear feels it's own kind of bad. I dislike the discourses of social justice, i think there's a lot going on there that i really disagree with, but we can separate people's demands for respect and dignity from the devolution of certain segments of the reformist left, yes? And sometimes this might mean recognizing that the alarming number of people who get away with murdering black men says something about our country's fucked up relationship with race and blackness. And sometimes it might mean that there's nothing wrong in theory with one person not loving another person's voice, but when massive amounts of people of all genders agree about hating women's voices, maybe there's something deeper going on there.

haha, sorry rusty, but you just got served.

Political Correctness has always existed; just who has controlled it has shifted from right to left (remember when two men kissing on TV was considered "offensive?"). It's the censorship that is bad. Telling a joke (which would potentially be funny in a different context) in the wrong company means you suck at reading the room and telling jokes and are possibly an asshole. There's a time and place for every comment (even very offensive jokes), but it's entirely the responsibility of the joker to understand the ethos and kairos (I went to college!) of the the situation.

Paul F Thompkins fucking owning the subject:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufz4W0puLPA[/youtube]

[rustywire]

The problem, Rusty, is that line of thought is often just defensiveness masquerading as "what's normal." And who is determining normalcy? You like comedy. I do too. But also, i don't really love it when shows or movies or comedians have extended jokes about trans women and how disgusting we are, and how we just exist to deceive men and trick them into being gay. I like making these jokes about myself sometimes in the company of close friends, but i don't really love hearing people who haven't pumped their bodies full of estrogen and cut off their genitals (because it was literally that or suicide) make these jokes, for what feel like obvious reasons. i'm a materialist about these things, to my own horror: actions and lived experiences matter a lot to me.

There is a reality that there are people in this very country whose lives and everyday experiences are vastly different than your own. And this isn't to say that you don't have it hard, just that people have it different but they all still deserve respect and basic decency. You say that Political Correctness feels like fascism, i would say living in a world where i'm in pretty constant fear feels it's own kind of bad. I dislike the discourses of social justice, i think there's a lot going on there that i really disagree with, but we can separate people's demands for respect and dignity from the devolution of certain segments of the reformist left, yes? And sometimes this might mean recognizing that the alarming number of people who get away with murdering black men says something about our country's fucked up relationship with race and blackness. And sometimes it might mean that there's nothing wrong in theory with one person not loving another person's voice, but when massive amounts of people of all genders agree about hating women's voices, maybe there's something deeper going on there.

Which aspects/line of thought is defensiveness masquerading as "what's normal". I would characterize normal as the duality of rule and exception, one does not disprove the other. The rule has greater probability to occur. The ability to adapt & blend-in situationally is an effective survival mechanism. In civilized society and the wilderness. Which is the best choice for survival? Sometimes instinct dictates and sometimes it's a conscious decision. Natural...is choosing the path of least resistance. But that's less exciting, by nature. Safe.

I can only imagine your personal struggle, and sympathize. I'm not numb to your reality. For years even into the 00s the only nationalized depiction of anyone trans could be in the con-artist context (you mentioned) on Jerry Springer. Or a fleeting nightclub moment with Brooke Burke in Wild On E! Or fetishists on HBO Real Sex. But those were cable & premium cable shows. Daytime tv it was strictly persona non grata.

I have been part of the in-group & out-group at different points in life. I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, in the valley alongside kids from the hill. Both homes, as my family split in 2 when (older) parents divorced as a kid. Literally and ideologically. I do know dark. And struggle...what it means to be ostracized, excluded. Alone. It's why I choose to be silly while I still can and laugh to keep from crying. Sometimes it means wearing the straight-hat, sometimes the funny-hat. Humor is another survival mechanism. Jokes are jokes. Absurdity is the greatest catalyst of "funny". Nobody owns it, a shared characteristic of the human condition.

You don't want your issue to be used as cheap punchlines and gags while being misrepresented. I get it. Most everyone has "their thing" where the jokes stop being funny when told by an outsider. Unless the individual who crossed the line turns around and says they identify as [insert] so it's OK. I would prefer normalcy to be treating everyone as being worthy of inclusion in the joke. Culture is fluid, dynamic.
If a comedian has to worry about everyone's one thing then absurdity is eschewed for...normalcy where only certain people can joke about, or criticize certain things. Comedians are people with issues, too. People-pleasers, provocateurs, attention seekers, adrenaline junkies & all types of addictive personalities who struggle. Humor can be jovial or mean-spirited. Intent matters. Context too. A performer on stage or in a skit isn't necessarily who they depict, in character. A joker isn't necessarily racist, sexist, ageist and so on for making a joke perceived as racist, sexist...because a depressed person takes a joke seriously and looks for the GOTCHA.

You are not the content of your wallet, your underpants, your flatware, your car and so on. Too much focus on "what am I? what are you?" and rushing to judgement instead of "I'm trying to be the best me I can" and "Hi, who are you?"

[snipelfritz]

Comedy being very close to me, I must remind us all of one of the first rules of stand-up "Never blame the audience."

I'm wary of people who bitch about political correctness. I grew up watching Family Guy; I know what's funny and what is trying too hard. If you can't land an offensive joke, your timing just sucks.

[rustywire]

Also worth remembering that structures of power are usually invisible to the people who benefit from it. At the same time, i am wary of social justice discourses that seek to lay the blame for the ways these powers enact themselves upon people at the feet of individuals, when the real problem is we exist in a world where it is to the benefit of people who possess power to continue dividing people into categories of who's more and less shit-on-able, but that's another thing.

See IDK If you're saying this for sake of argument or because you assume I don't notice how society is rigged and which behaviors are encouraged, coerced and which are made taboo. Or however people are eager to stigmatize me. I've been the consistent minority among core groups of friends before. "I'm not racist I have a black friend in school!" more like "I was friends with all kinds of kids" and harassed by law enforcement due to company I kept. I was on house arrest & probation, mandated rehab at 18. I've been in the system for a crime I didn't commit because people rushed to judgement and had an agenda. But considering what I got away with during those fast living teenage years...it was a much needed reality check I had to take seriously. I found myself in dangerous surroundings rubbing elbows with the type of individuals you don't want np. I didn't play victim, nor was any extra sympathy available for me to collect. No special treatment, excess humiliation. It's a bitter pill to swallow.

[snipelfritz]

No arguments are being made against you, just your argument.

[Mudfuzz]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu7vySQbgXI[/youtube]

[rustywire]

haha, sorry rusty, but you just got served.

Political Correctness has always existed; just who has controlled it has shifted from right to left (remember when two men kissing on TV was considered "offensive?"). It's the censorship that is bad. Telling a joke (which would potentially be funny in a different context) in the wrong company means you suck at reading the room and telling jokes and are possibly an asshole. There's a time and place for every comment (even very offensive jokes), but it's entirely the responsibility of the joker to understand the ethos and kairos (I went to college!) of the the situation.

Paul F Thompkins fucking owning the subject:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufz4W0puLPA[/youtube]

I sent back that plate
Still tipped, gratuitously

Yes PCness has existed historically. Are you familiar with the horseshoe effect? Contemporary PC culture is increasingly censorious due to the desire to control information in the digital age. Where everyone is in everyone's business. Whoever is in power becomes a fan of suppressing dissent. We currently exist in a climate where individuals with savior complex can make a scene on the global stage and attempt to be the arbiter of "funny" when getting offended on behalf of *marginalized* individuals who they perceive to be a sort of noble savage. Call-out PC culture is peacocking and saying "look at what a good person I am!" without really doing anything other than vilifying someone or something disagreeable.

Sorry, but I don't find Paul F Thompkins funny. Working within bits or off the cuff, he comes across as a pandering hack. Also mediocre. What he says/you say about knowing your audience is still accurate. It goes back to being situationally aware and probability, chance for survival. I'm aware of these concepts. However, making mistakes and surviving is how important lessons are learned. Maybe. PC culture discourages mistakes, even seeks them out to attack the maker instead of the mistake, justifying and excusing bigotry against individuals who don't toe the line from the correct side. The tone is "don't say that" instead of "maybe you should try rephrasing". Make a mistake and you're stigmatized for it, it's used as leverage against you for invalidation at every opportunity.

There's quite the distinction between being aware of your surroundings and not walking on eggshells because someone depressed may object to something innocuous you say in a performance piece. Or a clumsy mushmouth moment. You know very well there are people who deliberately distort something to spin it to their narrative. When context and message is ignored and only the words are given myopic focus, such a perspective has lost the plot and it is futile to entertain because they'll be back to complain about something else next time. And on and on...

[rustywire]

Comedy being very close to me, I must remind us all of one of the first rules of stand-up "Never blame the audience."

I'm wary of people who bitch about political correctness. I grew up watching Family Guy; I know what's funny and what is trying too hard. If you can't land an offensive joke, your timing just sucks.

Sometimes the audience is filled with stupid, wrong, and/or full of shit individuals. Assholes too. Law of averages.
It's become rare for someone to be aware they're the asshole, or among assholes. The digital revolution has facilitated an urge in humans to gravitate toward homogenous compartmentalized niche communities, where attempts are made to designate them, us, as collectivist blocs. How to best influence individuals within? Tailor-made narratives. Divide & conquer, in-group out-group. Control of information, censorship.

Family Guy is a cartoon, it's designed to be as absurd as possible. And yes, it suffers greatly from trying-too-hard. But it deals in high-volume joke/gag delivery. If a joke falls flat, the show still goes on. It's scathing social commentary when cartoon characters have been the realist characters on TV. For years. Personally I'm more of a South Park fan.
Tough Crowd with Colin Quinn and Chappelle's Show was my favorite hour of comedy on television. Because they approached unfavorable topics honestly and understood chemistry. Too real for TV, no animation subterfuge. One was in a live forum setting, the other sketch comedy. But one had the wrong politics and little support, the other found favor with the wrong audience, where Dave could no longer do his act because of people yelling out lines from his tv show. RICK JAMES BITCH HAHA DO THE THING!

Humanity fragile af. Most immature sentient life in the solar system.

No arguments are being made against you, just your argument.

K

[psychic vampire.]

[bandcamp][/bandcamp]Less directed at you specifically Rusty, and more just that important daily reminder that pointing out the inherent power dynamics in society - to me - should be less about making the individual into a bad guy and more about remembering that these power dynamics, hurtful in the many ways they are, exist because it behooves the world which humanity has built for them to. There are many overt bigots in this country, but the overwhelming majority of instances of bigotry are done by people who have no desire to be such, but are just not thinking critically, maybe even only at a given moment.

But, again, i'm interested in discussing actions, and real world experience. I'm not interested in making bold sweeping declarations about the essential being of people i don't know, at least not ones they wouldn't say about themselves. I know this is all more complicated than what we can get at on here, but when i hear people rail against Social Justice and Political Correctness, i get kind of exasperated because i have far from loving feelings for those discourses, but most people's reasons for hating them come more from fear than actual understanding. I don't know... Forest, Trees, something. I am far from having the answers. I wouldn't present myself to. I do think if someone's sense of humor hinges on degrating and disrespecting other people who are already being shat on by the rest of the world, they probably have a shitty sense of humor. But i only say that as someone who is perfect and incapable of hurting others.

[Chankgeez]

I think that's what Bruce Lee said.

[Gone Fission]

PC when not enforced by government is just another form of free speech. It is people collectively saying that they find some statements intolerable, and they'll vote with their feet to separate themselves from people who say them. I always find it hilarious when people who are otherwise alleged free-market absolutists rail against this kind of market response.

Say whatever the fuck you want. As ever, you don't get a cookie for having unpopular views, whether right or wrong.

[snipelfritz]

Free market of ideas, but to participate in any market, you need to have something others recognize as being of value.