Chelsea Wolfe:

[rustywire]

More eloquently (and fairly) I should have just said i think some of y'all are arguing with strawmen. I don't think some folks here are misogynists and some aren't. I think we all have shitty ideas that are informed by a toxic and alienating world we inhabit. I don't hate anyone here, i don't think oppressing men on the basis of their maleness is any more justified by treating women like shit. Plenty of men suffer shitty, toilsome existences in this world.

I don't like arguments about oppression and identity for so many reasons: such theories hinge on a asumption of a homogenized experience of race or gender or class, they reinforce the structures of power that created race, sexuality, gender, et al in the first place, they flatten people into two dimensional beings for the sake of politica, legibility, yadda yadda.

I do think it should be alright to point out that feminine musicians, be they women (in this case), homos, trans and genderweird folk, or anyone otherwise, often face increased scrutiny around their validity, when compared to more masculine folks. It is not the end of the world, and I am not angry at y'all for your abilities to use the mens' bathroom or anything, just, this is a real thing i and other folks i know have dealt with. It has certainly begun to change in recent years, but there is still a trope in heavy and extreme music genres of dismissing women present under the pretenses of their authenticity.

Fair enough...but I don't subscribe to the theory where race, sexuality, gender are exclusively social constructs. I think they're rooted in biology (nature) and fed by the subconscious desire for self-preservation (nurture). Unfortunately our *software* rarely seems optimized for our *hardware*. I also don't subscribe to intersectional oppression hierarchy theory...and will contend big bank take little bank; economic power is the only universal privilege.

I know others have different experiences, however I question human perception, whether individual or group.
I know the human memory is a deceitful amplifier prone to hyperbole, as are humans in our western society, by rule.
I know how terrible people can be...and are. That's not to say all people are terrible all of the time.
I know humans are emotional beings yet there are some truly frosty folks in a cold world...and there's a bigot on every street corner and in every living room.
I know the exception does not disprove the rule, and duality is reality.

NSFW: show

Musicians get the shaft, by rule. Especially those who have "the wrong look/image"
*Punks/Goths/Freaks* have had the right look for decades...at least in the art & music industries. Gay culture has driven countercultural innovation for even longer.
I suspect you will agree, image won the culture war (over substance) in the music industry since the rise of music video and broadcast events.
Monied interests, the (few remaining) record companies only pump big resources into a few artists at any given time, the ones which make for profitable brands.
It's about what sells: sex. Attractive people get more work/make more money in entertainment, "that's showbusiness!"
That isn't misogyny. Perhaps it's discrimination against the aesthetically unpleasing...but not everyone who is talented can put asses in seats with top billing; connect with an audience.
Nonetheless, women & men both judge the appearances of others and their *attractiveness* on sight. On sight. It's biological. If it means more people want to see *girly girl* musicians then it follows the people looking to make money will adopt the trends of what sells. That's just how it works
We can pretend it's all about art, expression & equality but It's mostly about numbers. Attention translates to numbers, usually. What gets attention? Whatever's conveniently in demand. Good-looking people are always in demand. They bring numbers even when talent is lacking, because humans are emotional beings. Numbers attract seedy people; those who would position themselves to exploit others & feed their appetites with whichever variety of low-hanging fruit crosses their path. I digress...

I don't immediately react to insensitive, even flippant judgement of a woman's looks/image as misogyny. Most people don't win the genetic lottery. Same goes for winning in life. Being critical of something subjective like music...can exist in a space that has nothing to do with the creator's genitalia. Same goes for their attractiveness, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Or beer holder. Or ear holder...if the music is ugly.

TL;DR
The fact is more people will listen to some mediocre shit while looking at some eye candy than listen to some ear candy from an obese slob covered in blemishes.
Predictably there will be individuals who act on behalf of their bigoted/misogynist beliefs... but they are not necessarily representative of the aggregate music industry and it is an injustice to the innocent when guilt-by-association accusations and words like "epidemic" get thrown around.

[psychic vampire.]

We could go really left field from here, and talk about how the concept of homosexuality as we understand it was only invented in the last few centuries, and what it means that these things are constructed, but I digress. What I meant to speak to was that i, as a feminine person who plays music, have Experienced invalidation and scrutiny that masculine peers receive less often. My feminine peers have spoken to me aboutgb similar experiences. Whether we call this misogyny or something else is whatever, I admit words are mirky waters and sometimes "useful shorthand" is just that. I have experienced and witnessed too many people telling me and other women and queers (another shorthand, and one I have a completely adversarial relationship with) that i or they are not legitimately "punk" or "metal" (or whatever) enough. There was that whole thing on facebook years ago of Girlfriend Metal, of dismissing girls who like it as probably only liking the poppy accessible stuff, and it's just like, women are making and listening to a lot of challenging music all the time. The situation becomes frustrating when rather than saying something like "this doesn't really sound heavy to me, and I don't love the music" people say things like "she's just lana del rey in goth makeup." If the desire is pushing the talk towards recuperation of aesthetics, or engagement in the spectacle, we could do it in less reductive ways. but no one is guiltless or perfect.

I think intersectional oppression is a cute idea born from a necessary place that in practice is wildly flattening and unrealistic. Don't really believe much in biology, but I don't really believe much in a lot of things.

[DarkAxel]

them: "She's just Lana del Ray in goth makeup"
me: "Good, means I might like it"

also forgetting about the fact that CW's output is much more a complex thing rather than a background music with focus on the vocal. Not saying Lana's instrumentals are horrible, but the focus is definitely on her vocal I think Whereas I'd be honored and happy to play in CW's band and would probably have a lot of fun

for the record: I hate misogynism in music. Shit is shit, doesn't matter what's in between your legs or in your head

[rustywire]

Well yeah...those are some obnoxious things to hear, whoever you are.
When someone opines about "she isn't real metal" or "he isn't true punk" I think it has more to do with their own snobbery & insecurity than the actual target of the criticism...because such sentiment is most commonly expressed as a reaction to the unfamiliar, unknown, different. Emotional beings...humans fear what they do not understand or recognize as familiar...as a survival instinct.

Personally I cant be bothered with concern for striving to "be legitimate punk metal whatever" and such concepts give my imagination claustrophobia. My whole musical approach is just trying to feel out what I think sounds good together while overcoming my limitations. Whatever people wanna call that...really doesn't change anything. This one legendary writer once wrote "a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet"
Then again my goals, experiences are different than *yours* & the next musician. But there's probably more commonality than deviation...

Also
The more passionate someone is about something, the bigger creep they come off to others. I call this...."Savant's Law"
Most people (passionate or not) SUCK at conscientious, effective communication and probably don't intend to be personally rude...but I'm not about to pretend like I know every1's motivation.

[Invisible Man]

Threads like these are ILFs version of TGP bullshit. Except we're playing gatekeeper for 'authentic subversion' instead of 'khaki pants.'

[PeteeBee]

''khaki pants.'

I've been looking for a nice khaki, or even slim chino, for a while now. Who makes the best khaki for doom?

[D.o.S.]

Threads like these are ILFs version of TGP bullshit. Except we're playing gatekeeper for 'authentic subversion' instead of 'khaki pants.'

This is definitely the sort of comment I would expect from someone who hadn't read the thread.

[Invisible Man]

Mwahaha I have never been accused of 'skipping the reading.'

I did read it all. The last three pages degenerated pretty quickly, even if the first dozen or so were supportive and productive. Just seems like we're adopting stances lately 'round these parts that aren't gonna go anywhere--how do we evaluate 'quality' and 'authenticity?' People waaay smarter than us have been working those out for millennia...and they're still not close. Not saying we shouldn't try, but I'll be damned if I wander into one more thread that's just a textbook example of political butthurt transposed onto stuff that we care about.

Not gonna go on any more of a rant here, but I just hope to communicate that we use the same tools as everyone else to 'evaluate' things we like. We just differentiate ourselves from other communities by what we consume, and not necessarily how we consume it.

This isn't true all of the time, but it'd be cool to turn away from emotionally-driven political discourse where it's required that one dies on the hill they've defended.

Anyway, Klon/Fuzzhugger. Strymon/M.A.S.F. John Mayer/Chelsea Wolfe.

And EDIT for hugs, because tone is impossible on the interweb.

[D.o.S.]

Yeah you're totally not wrong it's just Friday Afternoon seeping in.

[Invisible Man]

I feel it, too. I'm mostly dead here. Starting work at 6:00am...and my commute is almost two hours.

But I hope I'm being clear, and fear that I'm not. I think about how I drive a Subaru, and what that says about me, and whether piloting an imported Satian wagon through the 'burbs really has any bearing on what I am and do...or if the whole process for calibrating my politics and worth is so fucked up that I can't escape it's connection to materiality. Ultimately, I know that none of these things matter, but I still fall back on them in times of trouble. Leaning on 'quality' and 'authenticity' makes me feel good. They're the most stable parts of my life--they're new institutions. I seriously think about what pedal I might buy next when the sleep demons come after me...I pray Dr. Scientist my soul to keep. Brands fill in the blanks for me, y'know? They communicate a great deal, and sometimes I'm happy to pull back and let them, red card be damned.

And it bums me out that we so often do this even with things that aren't possessions. That logic filters down to 'taste' and 'style' and other lesser bits of our lives.

But I'm waxing poetic. I'm tired as fuck. I tend to philosophize everything, as that is what I am paid to do. Definitely think it's 'there,' but I'm not gonna bring Socrates into this thread for the sake of my own sanity. Instead, I plan to go home and practice drinking, which I have never done.

[D.o.S.]

(I also drive a Subaru. UNITY)

[Invisible Man]

You have a dog, then. 98% of Subaru owners have dogs. Which, of course, very much serves my purpose...'lifestyle' and shit. A former student worked for the dealership, and it came up that I have a Subaru...she brought me a little branded poop bag holder shaped like a dog bone and said "I know you have a dog. Here you go." Shit.

[D.o.S.]

I do not have a dog.

My parents, who are also Subie owners, do have a dog.

I am pro dog ownership.

[Invisible Man]

Fucking contrarian.

[casecandy]

I will say that my friend who was all about her Subaru was also a big dog person.

I babysat her dog one fucking time and I never got her yellow hair out of my black Jeep Wrangler Sahara, not until the day I sold the damn thing.

I now own a Toyota Highlander. Subversion is overrated.