Chelsea Wolfe:

[frodog]

Love Chelsea Wolfe. Loathe Lana Del Rey.

Chelsea has a new 7" coming out soon: https://www.hellomerch.com/collections/ ... os-7-vinyl

[casecandy]

I like both Chelsea and Lana a whole lot and while the comparison may have been intended to be unflattering, I totally get it and I see it as a positive thing. Can I be honest...? I always perceive some element of latent sexism in the criticism. Cool your jets, I'm not saying that you can't criticize these artists without being sexist. That's ridiculous. It just seems to me that the narrative is always "Lana Del Rey isn't really creating her image, she's a product of [insert male producer svengali/label/Dan Auerbach/etc.]," or "Chelsea Wolfe is just standing on the shoulders of artists that came before her, like [insert industrial artist/darkwave artist]." This is such bullshit. It's called having influences. Everyone who's worked with Lana Del Rey says the complete opposite is true.

"She has many different qualities that women in our culture aren’t allowed to be, all at once, so people are trying to find the inauthentic one."
— Tavi Gevinson

"It was very unusual... We sat for an hour and talked, without her playing any of her music. Just conversation, honing in on the philosophy of what she was doing, what she saw for herself—I was captured. It was a totally unorthodox meeting, and I thought, 'I’ve got to do this.' ... The only Svengali in this thing is Lana."
— Larry Jackson

http://www.spin.com/2012/01/deconstruct ... a-del-rey/

The above applies to Chelsea, too. Yeah, she's got a marketable image, but it's like my father-in-law told me when I complained about how commercial his favourite band, KISS, were. "Yeah, but they were commercial on their own terms." Touché... there's a reason she's collaborating with Russian Circles. Because she's a good enough musician to collaborate with Russian Circles.

[psychic vampire.]

Yes, there is a lot of unacknowledged latent misogyny in this thread and most discussions of these and other female musicians. Authenticity is always attacked. Skill/talent/originality usually too. It is boring to witness. For what it is worth, I think Lana Del Rey's albums are very hit or miss from song to song, but the ones that are good fucking move me. Literally listened to Radio and Born To Die on top of a fucking mountain and cried, shit was beautiful.

Chelsea Wolfe's last album was more of a departure and a direct/obvious leap into the darkwave/industrial/metal influences she'd been toying with, in my eyes, but it still had terrific moments.

[D.o.S.]

Yeah that's bullshit. I've spent four years being Meh on her music because it's fucking meh, not because she's got tits. Sorry.

But if a dozen plus pages of "oh em gee I love this" is latent misogyny, then I'm clearly out of my depth.

[psychic vampire.]

Yeah that's bullshit. I've spent four years being Meh on her music because it's fucking meh, not because she's got tits. Sorry.

But if a dozen plus pages of "oh em gee I love this" is latent misogyny, then I'm clearly out of my depth.

i was speaking less to those comments and more to the part about her just being Lana Del Rey in got makeup and shit, i was unclear, but those comments are bullshit. I mean, if we want to discuss like, the specacle and that shit about these musicians, i am happy to do so, but some of the last comments were along those lines, and seemed less aimed at a social political critique and more at the ability of a woman to make good music. And I think there is a lot of latent misogyny in how female musicians get discussed, in general. I don't think dismissing a woman as "she's just (another woman) in different clothes" isn't misogynist.

[D.o.S.]

Sure, but I thought it was sort of common knowledge that LDR was a total construct? Keep in mind I don't know anything about it aside from blips on here and like one Rolling Stone feature, but I sort of thought it was acknowledged in sort of a Bowie-plays-a-character sense?

That said, I don't have any idea how it relates to CW (who is still meh to my ears). You'd have to ask SpaceGhost Coast to Coast about that one.

[casecandy]

To be clear, I wasn't really talking about ILF.

Just something in general that grinds my gears.

[psychic vampire.]

Sure, but I thought it was sort of common knowledge that LDR was a total construct? Keep in mind I don't know anything about it aside from blips on here and like one Rolling Stone feature, but I sort of thought it was acknowledged in sort of a Bowie-plays-a-character sense?

That said, I don't have any idea how it relates to CW (who is still meh to my ears). You'd have to ask SpaceGhost Coast to Coast about that one.

Yeah, she is (and half the time I don't care at all for that character, neitgher here nor there), i think this is veering hard into another conversation. I don't know, there is a lot of bu,lshit about how female musicians are spoken of, whether one feels CW's music is meh or not, i don't understand why it had to be she is Lana Del Rey in goth makeup. If the feeling was that she is playing a constructed character, why not say that? Or why not point to David Bowie, or many other performers who have done that? I am admittedly getting hung up on one bullshit comment.

[rustywire]

Latelord checking in. Didn't scour the entire thread so if I missed something important/contradictory pls bring it to my attention.
Any1 making casual accusations of misogyny pls be specific. If some1 is looking for reasons to trash a woman because she's a woman/they hate women then address it and give them a chance to elaborate, clarify whatever criticism. Society still cant resist circling wagons anytime a woman is criticized by a non-woman; and the accusation of "misogyny" is thrown around to discredit the criticism without addressing it. That said...

I liken CW being called "Lana Del Ray in goth makeup" to calling Lady Gaga "a carbon-copy caricature of Madonna" without detecting any misogyny. Nobody (without a curfew) is saying "all she's good for is sexual gratification" or "women don't belong on stage" "girls suck as musicians" etc. At least nobody I've seen/encountered outside of a few obv troolz.
Was Gavin Rosdale being commonly referred to as "an anglo corporate rock Cobain wannabe" or Puff Daddy a "dancer with resources" "lazy producer" and so on...ever mistaken for sexism or hatred of men? Or was the critique substantial, speaking of the individuals' offerings and their public image; who they are as creators?
Big difference between criticizing who someone is as a conscientious decision maker & what they are, biologically speaking.

[SPACERITUAL]

Oh god are we having another gender sexism debate? SPACERITUAL AWAYYYYYYYY

[rustywire]

It is being injected into everything: The narrative of women being victimized unless you co-opt everything they say & do without question or complaint. If you don't like something a woman does and you're a man, then you're a misogynist. It's so backwards. Men can be criticized about anything & everything and other men largely don't care. A woman can criticize another woman and other women will nod their heads...but a man making the SAME criticism will be called sexist/misogynist etc by the SAME women. If a man comments on how he finds/doesn't find a woman sexually attractive he's dogpiled, wrong every time. Not the case when men are *objectified* or whatever. What gives?

[SPACERITUAL]

It is being injected into everything: The narrative of women being victimized unless you co-opt everything they say & do without question or complaint. If you don't like something a woman does and you're a man, then you're a misogynist. It's so backwards. Men can be criticized about anything & everything and other men largely don't care. A woman can criticize another woman and other women will nod their heads...but a man making the SAME criticism will be called sexist/misogynist etc by the SAME women. If a man comments on how he finds/doesn't find a woman sexually attractive he's dogpiled, wrong every time. Not the case when men are *objectified* or whatever. What gives?

Im 100% with you rusty but i got tired of talking about this last week in general so I'm out on this one.

[psychic vampire.]

Oh gods. Please spare the sky is falling theatrics, there are forms of misogyny outside plain, overt sexual harassment. No one in here is asking for posters to be exiled, i was simply pointing out that women in music do have to deal with a lot more criticisms of their appearance and "authenticity" and yes, theseare examples of actions influenced by a world that is cruel to feminine people. Condescension towards female musicians on the basis of their femininity is hardly breaking news.

Literally never said I think it is okay for men to be objectified, really try not to give a rat's ass about identity, but please understand that feminine presenting musicians may have differe t experiences than you. Or they may not, but that doesn't make one group right and the other wrong. Simply that people should be treated on the basis of their merits. Don't like CW or LDR? Great.

[psychic vampire.]

Oh gods. Please spare the sky is falling theatrics, there are forms of misogyny outside plain, overt sexual harassment. No one in here is asking for posters to be exiled, i was simply pointing out that women in music do have to deal with a lot more criticisms of their appearance and "authenticity" and yes, theseare examples of actions influenced by a world that is cruel to feminine people. Condescension towards female musicians on the basis of their femininity is hardly breaking news.

Literally never said I think it is okay for men to be objectified, really try not to give a rat's ass about identity, but please understand that feminine presenting musicians may have differe t experiences than you. Or they may not, but that doesn't make one group right and the other wrong. Simply that people should be treated on the basis of their merits. Don't like CW or LDR? Great.

More eloquently (and fairly) I should have just said i think some of y'all are arguing with strawmen. I don't think some folks here are misogynists and some aren't. I think we all have shitty ideas that are informed by a toxic and alienating world we inhabit. I don't hate anyone here, i don't think oppressing men on the basis of their maleness is any more justified by treating women like shit. Plenty of men suffer shitty, toilsome existences in this world.

I don't like arguments about oppression and identity for so many reasons: such theories hinge on a asumption of a homogenized experience of race or gender or class, they reinforce the structures of power that created race, sexuality, gender, et al in the first place, they flatten people into two dimensional beings for the sake of politica, legibility, yadda yadda.

I do think it should be alright to point out that feminine musicians, be they women (in this case), homos, trans and genderweird folk, or anyone otherwise, often face increased scrutiny around their validity, when compared to more masculine folks. It is not the end of the world, and I am not angry at y'all for your abilities to use the mens' bathroom or anything, just, this is a real thing i and other folks i know have dealt with. It has certainly begun to change in recent years, but there is still a trope in heavy and extreme music genres of dismissing women present under the pretenses of their authenticity.

[rustywire]

Oh gods. Please spare the sky is falling theatrics, there are forms of misogyny outside plain, overt sexual harassment. No one in here is asking for posters to be exiled, i was simply pointing out that women in music do have to deal with a lot more criticisms of their appearance and "authenticity" and yes, theseare examples of actions influenced by a world that is cruel to feminine people. Condescension towards female musicians on the basis of their femininity is hardly breaking news.

Literally never said I think it is okay for men to be objectified, really try not to give a rat's ass about identity, but please understand that feminine presenting musicians may have differe t experiences than you. Or they may not, but that doesn't make one group right and the other wrong. Simply that people should be treated on the basis of their merits. Don't like CW or LDR? Great.

Agree fully, with about all of my being, w/r/t the huge'd text.
Merit should never be ignored or dismissed, however I believe character is essential for consideration.
If the merits of 2 individuals are equal I probably want the one who places higher degree of importance on personal integrity...for any hypothetical scenario one can imagine.

As for the rest of your post...um...which specific forms, examples of misogyny do you have in mind?
What the...exiled? Who said anything about it? Not I!
Didn't mean to imply you objectified anyone, I went off on a tangent.

I see you replied to your own reply so I'll cut this one short because rustywiredwordyjackass is on the loose