Queen Bey: FORMATION

[Invisible Man]

Is it better Crass has a blatant message they preach to the choir or Beyonce slips in a little something to a massive audience?

No fucking clue. But I'm glad that she's getting some praise. Maybe she and others will figure out that they can find a way to maintain self-respect, help work some shit out, and still backstroke through Scrooge McDuck-esque vaults of cash.

[D.o.S.]

Is it better Crass has a blatant message they preach to the choir or Beyonce slips in a little something to a massive audience?

False equivocation because Crass were always more than a band. I don't see Beyonce setting up (let alone living in) something like the Dial house sometime soon. I don't see her doing anything to the detriment of her own personal wealth and well-being (and to that point it'd be hard to because she's Pepsi-levels of ubiquitous so it'd be hard to put a dig in that) in order to further social causes.

Here's another equally stupid and reductionist question: if you give $10 to charity and I give $10 to charity but your net worth is $25 and my net worth is $1,000,000, is it fair to say that we're both giving to the same degree?

The reasonable follow up: but, still, that's $20 towards charity, which is fine, but also not really what we're talking about.

[Invisible Man]

band/brand

[odontophobia]

3) Students of color who are suspicious of me teaching this, have complex relationships to the video and song, and try not to flip the fuck out at all the stuff that they'd love to say that would probably grind students from groups 1) and 2) into the ontological dust.

This is why I feel like I don't have a horse in the race (pun intended, or not, I'm not sure). I can stand back and be a supporter of PoC and want them to have equal rights and for systemic racism to be toppled from the inside out but that doesn't mean that I can fully wrap my mind around the injustices and the racism that they go through/have gone through/will go through and how this song can speak to that or speak to their empowerment.

[D.o.S.]

band/brand

Crass were just as much of a brand as Beyonce, though. That's the point, which is often overlooked: Crass was a whole lot of things, and the culmination was Dial House (massive oversimplification which I assume Galvar can go into more detail about if/when he checks this thread). The recorded output is secondary to the ideas. That is decidedly not the case with Beyonce.

[Invisible Man]

And I get what you mean--great power, responsibility, &c--but that doesn't diminish that you gave something (which not a lot of millionaires do), and that $10 is $10. $10 from a millionaire is as good as $10 found in the gutter, though it's more disappointing if you know the source.

I'm not gonna keep saying agree/disagree, because who gives a fuck, but please don't mistake my needling as anything other than what I've already said it is.

[D.o.S.]

Ofc not. I'm familiar with the concept of "set an idea lose on the natives and see what happens", even if I don't rely on it to further my paychecks.

[Invisible Man]

band/brand

Crass were just as much of a brand as Beyonce, though. That's the point, which is often overlooked: Crass was a whole lot of things, and the culmination was Dial House (massive oversimplification which I assume Galvar can go into more detail about if/when he checks this thread). The recorded output is secondary to the ideas. That is decidedly not the case with Beyonce.

My favorite example is RATM, who problematically split the difference on all of this shit. They were 'all about' delivering Marx and Angela Davis to the unwashed masses, but...they took advantage of a massive- and massively flawed delivery system. And then reissued anniversary editions and shit. They are the average of Beyonce and Crass in a lot of ways--politically, in terms of influence, even sonically, now that I think about it.

Fair to say that the recorded output is secondary to the ideas with Bey, though that would be an interesting tipping point to look at as of right now.

If I showed you my paychecks, you might have more sympathy. The reward is watching people twitch uncomfortably, not in having nice things...

Galvar! Where are you?!

[D.o.S.]

Important to note here, re: RATM reissues, etc., is that they may not own the rights to their records. I don't know. I do know that the classic argument as far as that goes is "should you be able to buy (emphasis on buy) Noam Chomsky in a big box book store", which is what we're probing in a different light.

Not trying to dominate the conversation or anything, I just have a lot of thoughts.

[Invisible Man]

Typed out that example (Chomsky), then deleted it, as I figured this is a music-based forum, and it seems wise to allay suspicions of pretentiousness...even though Chomsky is the McDonald's equivalent of intellectual offerings. So it goes.

I haven't looked into RATM's contract, so maybe I shouldn't spout off on that. There's no denying those guys did OK financially in protesting the WTO, Mumia's imprisonment, supporting the Zapatista, movement...same question, different circumstance.

Also not trying to dominate. Also have a lot of thoughts. Laissez-faire.

[infamousalien]

False equivocation because Crass were always more than a band. I don't see Beyonce setting up (let alone living in) something like the Dial house sometime soon. I don't see her doing anything to the detriment of her own personal wealth and well-being (and to that point it'd be hard to because she's Pepsi-levels of ubiquitous so it'd be hard to put a dig in that) in order to further social causes.

Beyonce was always more than a musical artist too. She was a brand and image from the start. So that argument doesn't work either way. Crass reached and still has reached only a minute portion of the population. You can have great ideas and ideals but if only a few hear them does that make a change? Does that do more good than starting to plant seeds and slip stuff into the mainstream? The legacy I have seen of Crass is getting people to live in dilapidated old buildings as a "collective." That's all fine and good but that won't change the mainstream consciousness at all. Maybe after the Super Bowl or watching that video some people started to look into stuff and open their awareness. It has to happen somehow and sometime. Maybe I should have used Jell-o Biafra instead of Crass. I just kind of randomly picked them only knowing a little about them.

[Invisible Man]

This is why I feel like I don't have a horse in the race (pun intended, or not, I'm not sure). I can stand back and be a supporter of PoC and want them to have equal rights and for systemic racism to be toppled from the inside out but that doesn't mean that I can fully wrap my mind around the injustices and the racism that they go through/have gone through/will go through and how this song can speak to that or speak to their empowerment.

Not a ton of good answers here, right? But it seems to me that honesty and a willingness to engage and ask short questions of willing people goes a long way. Maybe lean into it, you know?

Quick teasers of anecdotes: grew up in- and in the orbit of Detroit (the blackest city in America, at least by demographic %), and, when I was a teenager/younger man, was held both at gunpoint and, in a separate incident, at knife point by young black men. I'll briefly acknowledge that and talk about how it's tough to get past situations that remind me of them, and that I still have the habit of essentializing people based on what I can see of them, or assume about them. Just admitting weakness, and being a part of the problem in a self-conscious way can sometimes amount to being part of the solution. It's the people who are blissfully unaware of their own place in the spectrum of this stuff that do the most damage.

[D.o.S.]

^ Very nice post, and I'd agree with the first bit.

False equivocation because Crass were always more than a band. I don't see Beyonce setting up (let alone living in) something like the Dial house sometime soon. I don't see her doing anything to the detriment of her own personal wealth and well-being (and to that point it'd be hard to because she's Pepsi-levels of ubiquitous so it'd be hard to put a dig in that) in order to further social causes.

Beyonce was always more than a musical artist too. She was a brand and image from the start. So that argument doesn't work either way. Crass reached and still has reached only a minute portion of the population. You can have great ideas and ideals but if only a few hear them does that make a change? Does that do more good than starting to plant seeds and slip stuff into the mainstream? The legacy I have seen of Crass is getting people to live in dilapidated old buildings as a "collective." That's all fine and good but that won't change the mainstream consciousness at all. Maybe after the Super Bowl or watching that video some people started to look into stuff and open their awareness. It has to happen somehow and sometime. Maybe I should have used Jell-o Biafra instead of Crass. I just kind of randomly picked them only knowing a little about them.

to clarify: Beyonce's cultural capital is entirely musical. Crass (the band) was one facet of Crass (the flag). Certainly the most enduring/well-known facet, but it was born out of a group of people with a very specific idea about things, not a Dad-ager with visions of musical domination.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, though. Biafria's a better person to pick for your point, definitely.

[Eivind August]

So, Beyonce's motives are unclear. Don't even know if she wrote the lyrics? And she probably didn't direct the video. Still, as a medium, she brings a message across to a broad audience regardless of who had the ideas. We can question the legitimacy of this, but the result is still that people see the video, react, and hopefully think about things. Symbolism is a powerful tool, as hundreds of conspiracy nut youtube video viewers can attest to. So, in the end, isn't this a good thing? Sure, the song isn't that good, the video might not appeal to everyone, but it spreads a message that people should take into consideration.

Without having followed this closely, haven't some people already started calling the song 'hate speech'? Read something along those lines in a Facebook-post earlier today. That's an interesting reaction, and shows that this thingamajig accomplished something.

No? I don't know, and I don't think this post added much to the discussion beyond superficial repetition of some main points.

[D.o.S.]

I think we're all in agreement with you that this is probably a good thing to be spreading, we're just arguing about the minutia of where that credit should go and how much it should get?

re: hate speech, that's almost not worth talking about since those people have entirely/purposefully missed the point.