Leveler, Limiter, Compressor, Volume Pedal use with noise

[lordgalvar]

So my hypothetical pedal board is:

Ge Pep Box -> BeeBaa -> Routing -> Ring Mod -> (maybe a boost like LAL Angel Ring) -> Trogotronic 669cv in loop -> Trogotronic 679 in loop -> Moog MF104z (the routing point would be albe to switch the delay and ring mod in places or run things in parallel)

It will all be going into something loud.

Essentially, the chain would only be 4 pedals long at any given time...When I play I play through two max at a time (and I might even scrap the ring mod and delay from this board and just use a phaser or env filter)

I like the harshness of it all. I love the dynamic loudness and spikes, but the BeeBaa and PepBox can not keep up with the volume of the trogotronics (which will have the option to run in parallel without my guitar going through...going to make some fancy switches/relays)...The trogotronics "volume" is very interactive with the rest of the pedal and gets kinda set where I want it...no regards to the actual volume.

What would be the best way to level out the volume? Here are the options I have thought of:

1. Run separate volume controls on the trogotronic's loops and level them as best I can to the fuzz level.
2. Level out the trogotronics the best I can and the use a boost to raise the fuzzes
3. Run limiters after each trogotronic (to account for variances..which I don't really want to do unless they make one I can hide... under a board/no stomp switch) I really know nothing about this
4. Some kind of compression? But I think that might kill everything I like about this stuff (again, don't know much about it).
5. Are there any levelers out there that might work in a pedal board format(again, don't know if this is correct or anything about it).
6. Just use a volume pedal with a boost? (I have morely phaser/volume that does boost and I love the way it sounds/I would switch this with the delay or something)

Do they make "always on" compressors/limiters/levelers that looks something like a DI box from Radial? I think that would look pretty sweet under the board.

I dunno, it's all hypothetical and just something I have been thinking about in my head. I don't really have a reason for a pedal board but would like to build one cause it is kinda fun.

Anyway, Yea! Opinions, suggestions, give 'em... I want to learn about the mystical things I have never even thought of and wonder if they even have a use in what I am doing...

Thanks (I think this is my first "what gear" thread)...sorry for sounding like an idiot

[D.o.S.]

I like where this is going.

Option 1 seems like the easiest to me, by far.

[lordgalvar]

I forgot I put the BeeBaa in there for the boost. haha. The fuzzes at the front don't matter as much and will vary with my taste that day (probably) but if it was like the 88, I would add the angel ring).

I also generally like to push my amp just a bit but not too hard. Just enough for some preamp grit, but not full on overdrive/high gain (so I run my pedals at slightly above the instrument level so that I could play clean if I ever got talent...)

Also agree that option 1 seems the easiest (and it was my first thought) just wanted some different opinions from experts haha. My only concern with option 1 would be when the trogotronics spike and make ears bleed because they want to at that moment (not often but can happen)

I am totally willing to build something too, just point me in a direction.

[D.o.S.]

Yeah at this point I'm just trying to think my way through this. So you have two fuzzes going into a pair of trogotronics that are running in parallel loops (I think the company is rad but I don't know the 6--'s very well)?

[crochambeau]

Option #1.

Problem with limiters and/or compressors is that in order to perform the task at hand, they are going to have to work really hard - which is going to step on the sound you currently like. The result may be better, may be worse, but I'm going to guess that since you already said "I like the harshness of it all. I love the dynamic loudness and spikes" that running compression is the wrong turn.

I think what you're up against is a nominal level disparity. The BeeBaa etc., are suited for guitar range levels, whereas the Trogotronic runs considerably hotter. Since I'm going to assume the input of your amp is also tailored for the lower levels, I'd say whip up some passive attenuators and place them such that they only shave the level after the hotter stuff is done doing what it does best.

This is essentially taking a +4/-10 dB switch approach to the problem, instead of trying to strangle your signal to fit the bottleneck.

[lordgalvar]

I figured compressors would be wrong, but I just have no idea about them in a live/guitar setting and know even less about limiters and levelers. Part of me was thinking that I wanted to do something different and kinda trick (like putting two trick snow mobile engines in a smart car or make a twin-turbo 1200hp Pontiac Tempest) while also just trying to find out if that stuff is used in a noise setting. First time I had ever used a limiter was on the ILF drone comp...before that I would just sparingly use a volume control. And I also didn't know if limiters and levelers squash the sound as much as I know compression can

The amp I am using right now is a Sunn Sorado (because the wife isn't, it's hers, haha) and it takes different levels pretty well. It works well as a keyboard amp (which is line) and ok with guitar. I know that probably isn't as large of difference as the output of a fuzz to the trogotronic which, like metasonix, probably could care less about what it's output level is...it just does what it does.

Yea, I think my first instinct was right and I am just going to build attenuation into my switch box...and if I go through with the parallel, nice passive mixer too. I still might find a cheap limiter just to see how it sounds (or build one) because it can't hurt to try. Might work for something else I do...I know sometimes when I put up noise over a drone the levels are way off sometimes and I ain't quick enough to turn it down physically haha.

Thanks, crochambeau....dirty doper will probably be on this board at some point.

[goroth]

Instead of a passive attenuator why not build a boost like an sho and run it at less than unity volume? I find boosters add a bit of sparkle even at less than unity, which might work out better than passive volume attenuation.

[lordgalvar]

Not a bad idea, goroth. I'll try it out with a boost I have and see what happens.

edit: Totally just just realized I have the steroid od...might give that limiter a try or use it to attenuate.

[lordgalvar]

So just to keep this going....(until I get some stuff setup and back at my house)

Does anyone use any of the fancy effects like limiters and compressors in their noise, drone, or whatever-not-guitar setups? Is there any benefit to use them squash everything together /does it make a more complex drone/harsh noise wall (thanks D.o.S.)/allow for swells not in volume but in sound separation (like separation to saturation?) with loud amplification afterwards of course. Or does it just loose all it's "power" and sound dumb...I know some of this comes from taste and experimenting...just looking for stories. Or do most people do what I do and just run back through preamp gain/dirt to just kinda compress that way? I guess running through full wet delay and reverb can kind of accomplish the same things...starting to ramble

I have a Boss CS-3 my mom got me 10 or something years ago for my birthday but haven't taken out of the garage since then. Might try something with it and see if there is any benefit.

[D.o.S.]

Whenever I'm going through an amp I usually have something at the end of the chain that I use as a makeshift master volume (typically the Denormalizer or the RM-1N but any "transparent" overdrive [gag] would work if you want to avoid reverb or delay) which but I'm working in a strictly linear fashion Box A>Box B>BoxC>etc.>amp. so I can't say how this would work for your above system. You get the separation between sounds, and while it doesn't eliminate the need for riding the volumes constantly, I look at that as something to do while it's happening.

Probs not the most helpful response. I should be able to play with some amplification this week and try stuff out.

[lordgalvar]

I've always worked in the linear too and done some nice stuff but sometimes I feel like I want to run modulation in parallel. When I was attempting my setup for the ILF Drone Comp (which was crazy because I totally forgot how to use my recording equipment and had to read the manual with a stuff looping as I was going ) I just kept forgetting something and getting kinda lost/making mistakes...which sucked.

I'm going to go try both methods yours/goroth's boost/overdrive method and the compressor thing (with the cs-3...dug it out) post mixer with the MNP-2 because UC asked me some questions about that (plus good excuse to run that because it is in parallel basicually, unless you use some sources for ring mod, FM, etc).

Maybe I will try a different camera too for the bass.

Thanks D.o.S.

[daseb]

I keep a micro amp around to boost or cut levels in chains like this but that's really only for desktop messing.

Don't the trogotronics have output volume controls though? My 665 does.

[lordgalvar]

Yea, but they are pretty interactive with the other controls sometimes (or at least it seems that way). I don't even know where it is on the 666. Even when they are on 1 or 2 nothing else really keeps up. The volume does level out toward the top though. Partially this is just wondering/thinking out loud...but thought it might take me into a different place I hadn't checked out.

Good deal on the micro amp. I've got everything setup now for trials tomorrow...

[daseb]

ah right. I can't say I've noticed that with the 665 but like most Nelson made sorcery boxes that sounds different every time I plug it in anyway. Keen to hear what you do with it!

[crochambeau]

Does anyone use any of the fancy effects like limiters and compressors in their noise, drone, or whatever-not-guitar setups?

Yes (that's why I initially peeked into the thread), I have an old Alesis 3630 that sits in the feedback loop on my live noise rig. I find being able to squish the ever loving shit out of an already unruly signal is arguably a more responsive effect than anything else in the chain (which changes all the time). Ratio, threshold, recovery gain, these put a lot of sway on the noise angle, though I usually avoid compressing the entire mix. So, imagine a stereo loop of dirt and gain being sculpted by compression returning to a relatively clean mixing device of some sort that is getting pounded out by other shit.

Regarding noise I like a lot of controls on the compressor, single knob stuff often SOUNDS better, but is not so applicable a tool in this context.

Naturally, everything I just said is null and void outside the scope of noise, 3630 compressors specifically are not what I would consider lush or fulfilling for other forms.