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I feel like a dummy, but I can't wrap my head around the difference between "sound on sound" as found on a DD-20 or El Cap or whatever, and regular old "phrase sampling" (what I think of as "looping"), on an RC-3 or whatever looper pedal you like. Can someone please "pretend" you're talking to an idiot and explain?

Someone will explain this better/correct me, but in my mind they *could* be the same thing, but aren't necessarily.

An overdub on a loop is "sound on sound" but the phrases are usually used for different things: SOS usually meaning adding new sounds as feedback to a delay line (or, in what I believe is the original application, a tape loop).

So for practical purposes in the way the phrases are used in the pedal realm, "phrase sampling" is clean/stable/infinite-until-stopped (like a digital repeat) while SOS is murky/fading away/potentially destructive (like an analog repeat).

Heraclitus Akimbo wrote:Someone will explain this better/correct me, but in my mind they *could* be the same thing, but aren't necessarily.

An overdub on a loop is "sound on sound" but the phrases are usually used for different things: SOS usually meaning adding new sounds as feedback to a delay line (or, in what I believe is the original application, a tape loop).

So for practical purposes in the way the phrases are used in the pedal realm, "phrase sampling" is clean/stable/infinite-until-stopped (like a digital repeat) while SOS is murky/fading away/potentially destructive (like an analog repeat).

That's what I had been thinking... but - if I'm reading you correctly - the latter is what I do with the long delay times on my DD-20, which also has a dedicated SOS mode. So...?

"Sound on Sound" comes from the days of tape machines and initially referred to any kind of overdubbing. Les Paul was arguably the first person to really do this, especially with guitar. Later, some companies making tape delays (like Roland) added an additional playback head much further away from the other playback heads and called it "Sound on Sound" (like the RE-501 I have). It's really just a long delay, other than that, it's identical to the other "echo" settings. Same level/mix settings, same feedback/repeats control, etc. The important thing is that on a real tape delay, even if you turn the repeats ("Intensity" on the RE-501) all the way up, you can never get it to sound like a looper because by its nature, the recording degrades every time it repeats (getting darker and more distorted).

"Phrase sampling" comes from the early days of vinyl DJs (pretty much starting with Grandmaster Flash), and refers to grabbing a "phase" or "break" from a song and playing only that part, usually over something else. When early digital samplers came out, especially MPC's, they were built to do exactly that - playback various phrases/breaks either as one-shots or continuously looping. There's no degradation, and the repeating of the loop is generally associated with musical bars instead of time (milliseconds) like with delays.

These days, digital stuff can do either/both, and the labelling of the algorithm used probably has more to do with how it sounds (frequency response, distortion, fade-out of the loop, etc) that with the actual functionality.

Hope that helps.

Yeah, keep in mind that the usage of these terms is largely in the realm of marketing - which should never be considered clinically accurate (that is to say: exceptions are bound to apply).

To me, sound on sound means the erase aspect of a "record head" is disengaged, resulting in a non-destructive but committed additive pass. There's also a destructive (erase engaged) pass, but with some of the output fed back into the input (see: feedback control). There's also sound on sound with feedback (I'm picking through nits amidst the lint in the bottom of my pocket here).

Sample, on the other hand is a distinct capture of a span of time with a definite beginning and ending. Sampling can, of course, take place upon the active audio captured from the buffer memory of a delay, but the file itself is then no longer a working entity, it's a playback path. Of course, these functions exist in many units that can then seamlessly insert the playback file into a working memory (with or without "sound on sound" or resample) allowing a fair bit of "all of the above" to the end user experience.

Sound on Sound = Frippertronics
Phrase Sampling = Dad rock loops

To confuse things further, I believe the DD20 sound in sound mode is, in fact, phrase sampling.

ratrod wrote:To confuse things further, I believe the DD20 sound in sound mode is, in fact, phrase sampling.

EXACTLY what confused me so much! Thank you!

that's one of the best examples of collective explaining i've ever seen. well done, lads/lasses!

Thank you everybody!

Case closed. I post anyway.

Phrase sampling has defined start and end points you set. Sound on sound style looping is more open and much more like a long delay that you can keep adding to and some audio disappears or alters. The terms have been muddied over the years. But to me, it is entirely two different types to approach looping.

codetocontra wrote:Case closed. I post anyway.

Phrase sampling has defined start and end points you set. Sound on sound style looping is more open and much more like a long delay that you can keep adding to and some audio disappears or alters. The terms have been muddied over the years. But to me, it is entirely two different types to approach looping.

Yes, and it's my own search to (possibly) replace my DD-20 AND my Infinity that led me to Torn's massive TGP thread from a few years ago, which helped me articulate this difference and realize that I think I'm moving from being interested in phrase sampling/song-based looping to more old-school sound-on-sound work.

Sound on sound is definitely where I like to be (though I use regular loopers as well). The Expedition Electronics 60 Second Delay is my fave thing, and there's lotsa cool options with ZOIA down this path.

Heraclitus Akimbo wrote:Sound on sound is definitely where I like to be (though I use regular loopers as well). The Expedition Electronics 60 Second Delay is my fave thing, and there's lotsa cool options with ZOIA down this path.

I'm really interested in that 60 Second Delay, but I wish I could find some video of it in use.

I wrote to the guy asking about availability, and he said he'd just sold the last one but is working on something "similar" for later in the year.

when i got into looping my entire aesthetic was based on the bootleg tape of the Fripp/Eno performance at the Olympia in Paris 1973. it's varied and gone into other sonic areas, but other than Fripp's solo work and various of Eno's projects i've never listened to other folks who primarily loop (i say "primarily" to differentiate from people like Torn and Jaco who did a certain amount of looping but were mainly focused on other aspects). there's also some EDM influence there...i'm really into the Berlin/Detroit sort of techno where a fairly simple, brutally kinetic phrase can be looped for minutes at a time with the artist shifting subtle changes and accents over the top a la Richie Hawtin and Basic Channel. but it all is based on that one night in Paris.