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Hey pals,

I’m wondering how common it is for pedal companies to outsource the building of their pedals without specifically admitting to doing so? When you look at a brand like CNZ Audio, it’s clear these are just rebranded pedals from
Chinese OEM manufacturers, but if you’re not familiar with pedals in general and you visit a website like theirs, there would be no reason to think that they’re not a wholesome, God-fearing trio of P&W bros who bang out pedals after Sunday School. But are there other companies that are more devious, more deceitful about the practice of having pedals made in a factory and branded to appear more boutique? Is it a bad practice? What do you think about all of this? It’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately, and I wonder what others think and what their experiences have been?

I’d guess all p&w dudes would only self cream over outsourced tonez I’m am interested in your question..

Blood_mountain wrote:Is it a bad practice? What do you think about all of this?

As long as you are transparent about the process, I don't mind.

I think it's really hard to draw the line any more. Literal rebranding is total fucking stupid. But the days of people with big ass components soldering shit randomly together in their kitchens and selling them are way gone. Even really small manufacturers are doing things way more professionally. Getting pcbs designed instead of doing shit on perf or vero. Transitioning from through-hole to SMD. Getting prepopulated boards. Getting boxes powder coated, screened and drilled by someone. Getting a rad person to do the graphic design. And so on and so on. So, apart from my first example (of literally taking a joyo pedal, slapping a shitty paintjob on it and a zero on the price tag), what do you mean by outsourcing, and what is it doing to your crystal lettuce?

goroth wrote: ass components

That's the name of our new pedal-themed band.

goroth wrote:I think it's really hard to draw the line any more. Literal rebranding is total fucking stupid. But the days of people with big ass components soldering shit randomly together in their kitchens and selling them are way gone. Even really small manufacturers are doing things way more professionally. Getting pcbs designed instead of doing shit on perf or vero. Transitioning from through-hole to SMD. Getting prepopulated boards. Getting boxes powder coated, screened and drilled by someone. Getting a rad person to do the graphic design. And so on and so on. So, apart from my first example (of literally taking a joyo pedal, slapping a shitty paintjob on it and a zero on the price tag), what do you mean by outsourcing, and what is it doing to your crystal lettuce?

Yeah, I guess part of the interest is in learning what level out "outsourcing" is happening - from literal rebranding of OEM products to having boards pre-populated and whatnot - I'm actually interested in learning what is possible/common in the pedal building industry as I genuinely don't know. When companies are having boards pre-populated, are they then just doing the footswitches and i/o jacks themselves? Just securing it in the enclosure and testing? I'm curious to know!

It's fairly common.

Usually builders who do all/most of their buildin' themselves aren't shy about lettin' us know.

Blood_mountain wrote:Yeah, I guess part of the interest is in learning what level out "outsourcing" is happening - from literal rebranding of OEM products to having boards pre-populated and whatnot - I'm actually interested in learning what is possible/common in the pedal building industry as I genuinely don't know. When companies are having boards pre-populated, are they then just doing the footswitches and i/o jacks themselves? Just securing it in the enclosure and testing? I'm curious to know!

If you have populated boards (this is usually done by the same company that makes the PCBs) you may still have to install some board components by hand and then all the switches/potentiometers/LEDs/etc... still need to be installed by the person assembling the pedal. Depending on your goals you can have various amounts of final assembly work and wiring. Some folks design engineering masterpieces that haver zero wire in them and others still wire jacks/switches with individual wires.

I wouldn't say there is any one thing that is 'common' because every manufacturer does things differently depending on how they prefer to work. I personally would not conflate getting custom branding on existing pedals and having a contractor perform some of your board assembly work. Custom branding is generally done by massive companies to add a quick low end product to their catalog. Having contractors stuff boards is done by folks who want to spend more than 5 minutes with their family a day rather than personally soldering every single resistor and cap on a board. Those aren't value added tasks. Having more time for design work, customer service, and self care are though.

whoismarykelly wrote:

Blood_mountain wrote:Yeah, I guess part of the interest is in learning what level out "outsourcing" is happening - from literal rebranding of OEM products to having boards pre-populated and whatnot - I'm actually interested in learning what is possible/common in the pedal building industry as I genuinely don't know. When companies are having boards pre-populated, are they then just doing the footswitches and i/o jacks themselves? Just securing it in the enclosure and testing? I'm curious to know!

If you have populated boards (this is usually done by the same company that makes the PCBs) you may still have to install some board components by hand and then all the switches/potentiometers/LEDs/etc... still need to be installed by the person assembling the pedal. Depending on your goals you can have various amounts of final assembly work and wiring. Some folks design engineering masterpieces that haver zero wire in them and others still wire jacks/switches with individual wires.

I wouldn't say there is any one thing that is 'common' because every manufacturer does things differently depending on how they prefer to work. I personally would not conflate getting custom branding on existing pedals and having a contractor perform some of your board assembly work. Custom branding is generally done by massive companies to add a quick low end product to their catalog. Having contractors stuff boards is done by folks who want to spend more than 5 minutes with their family a day rather than personally soldering every single resistor and cap on a board. Those aren't value added tasks. Having more time for design work, customer service, and self care are though.

Yeah, that all makes sense. Do you think there is a different level of quality from/confidence in a pedal builder who does everything by him/herself vs one that has boards pre-populated? Follow up question, do you know where the pre-population is typically done? Is this something that is done abroad, in areas where labour is potentially cheaper/more exploitable than domestically? I work in the health food industry as my 9-to-5, and basically all of the world's supplemental vitamin C comes from a few factories in China. Are 90% of the pre-populated effect pedal boards built in China?

Chankgeez wrote:

goroth wrote: ass components

That's the name of our new pedal-themed band.

Powdercoated Boxes would be another good one.

Blood_mountain wrote:

whoismarykelly wrote:

Blood_mountain wrote:Yeah, I guess part of the interest is in learning what level out "outsourcing" is happening - from literal rebranding of OEM products to having boards pre-populated and whatnot - I'm actually interested in learning what is possible/common in the pedal building industry as I genuinely don't know. When companies are having boards pre-populated, are they then just doing the footswitches and i/o jacks themselves? Just securing it in the enclosure and testing? I'm curious to know!

If you have populated boards (this is usually done by the same company that makes the PCBs) you may still have to install some board components by hand and then all the switches/potentiometers/LEDs/etc... still need to be installed by the person assembling the pedal. Depending on your goals you can have various amounts of final assembly work and wiring. Some folks design engineering masterpieces that haver zero wire in them and others still wire jacks/switches with individual wires.

I wouldn't say there is any one thing that is 'common' because every manufacturer does things differently depending on how they prefer to work. I personally would not conflate getting custom branding on existing pedals and having a contractor perform some of your board assembly work. Custom branding is generally done by massive companies to add a quick low end product to their catalog. Having contractors stuff boards is done by folks who want to spend more than 5 minutes with their family a day rather than personally soldering every single resistor and cap on a board. Those aren't value added tasks. Having more time for design work, customer service, and self care are though.

Yeah, that all makes sense. Do you think there is a different level of quality from/confidence in a pedal builder who does everything by him/herself vs one that has boards pre-populated? Follow up question, do you know where the pre-population is typically done? Is this something that is done abroad, in areas where labour is potentially cheaper/more exploitable than domestically? I work in the health food industry as my 9-to-5, and basically all of the world's supplemental vitamin C comes from a few factories in China. Are 90% of the pre-populated effect pedal boards built in China?

I work in a consumer tech company and we only get the bare PCBs from china, SMT assembly for PCBAs and final assembly is still done in Europe.
Of course, lots of companies also outsource the PCBA to China or other eastern countries, but you don't have to do that. There are prototype or small-series manufacturers pretty much everywhere, you can find PCB assembly lines in every country (at least here in europe) and it is really quite easy and not overly expensive to get professionaly assembled PCBAs pre-made.
I also switched from perfboard and THT components to factory-made PCBs and SMT, it is just more convenient and easier for me to do, since I also do it as my job. And with multiple PCB-pool or prototype services available online, you can get cheap PCBs made for home use.
I think if demand for your pedals rises, it makes sense to outsource some tasks, like SMT assembly - especially since quality usually also increases... Automatic placement machines have a really low error rate and professional reflow soldering is also really reliable, plus you have some checks like optical inspections or in-circuit tests that make sure that every component is in the right spot.

Blood_mountain wrote:Yeah, that all makes sense. Do you think there is a different level of quality from/confidence in a pedal builder who does everything by him/herself vs one that has boards pre-populated? Follow up question, do you know where the pre-population is typically done? Is this something that is done abroad, in areas where labour is potentially cheaper/more exploitable than domestically? I work in the health food industry as my 9-to-5, and basically all of the world's supplemental vitamin C comes from a few factories in China. Are 90% of the pre-populated effect pedal boards built in China?

PCB manufacturing and component stuffing is done by a relatively small number of highly skilled workers in any given factory. Its not sweatshop work. The vast majority of it is done by machines and the people are just managing the machines and some QC operations. Most PCB fab for pedals is done in China because industry is subsidized by the government and a small builder can get 50 PCBs for their pedal for $100 or so shipped to the US. If you get PCBs from a US supplier you'll pay up to 10 times as much per board. This is one of the reasons why Frantone pedals were approaching $500 before they stopped production. Everything was done by small companies in the US.

In terms of quality of the builder you have to consider the variety of skills involved. 15 years ago the vast majority of boutique pedal companies on the market were kitchen table operations with people building very simple pedals and selling them for high prices. You can learn to build a Tone Bender MKII on a piece of vero in a day from reading the internet. If you built your hype right you could be selling those for $500 each a year later around 2010. That era has ended and there is much more demand for original designs, affordable pedals, and regular availability. But the skill set to deliver those things involves making your operation efficient and allocating resources (time/money) effectively. The guy building vero tone benders is likely incapable of designing a complex PCB with board mounted pots and contracting the manufacture with SMD components from an overseas production facility. It would be like comparing your ability to make a single dinner with someone running a restaurant that serves 200 people a night. The production numbers are equally far apart. I assemble pedals for another builder when he needs a batch and some of his designs are SMD boards ready to go and others require stuffing components. I can build 30 pedals that have stuffed SMD boards in the time it takes to build 5 of the pedals where I need to stuff the board myself. Once you get to a certain level of production you look for ways to spend less time soldering because a machine can do it a lot faster and at a higher level of quality than a human can.

I am considering getting some designs at least partially pre-assembled by a factory. There are limitations, however. I believe a given manufacturer is going to have their stock of jellybean parts, so if I want to use say, a 2N3904, I need to be satisfied with the type and tolerance of what they carry; otherwise I'll need to supply my own parts and shoulder the burden of both shipping costs *to* them, any applicable re-tooling fees they see fit to charge to load my parts into a machine, a run large enough to secure exclusive use of said machine (as opposed to being one member on a larger panel), etc. etc..

Furthermore, stuff like discrete transistor matching, diode matching, or trimming a circuit is probably not within reach along those channels.

With super involved builds it is enticing to think about getting at least a partial assembly of non-critical components done, and I see myself exploring that on the horizon.

I knew of one company that had all their stuff done at the same factory we had our enclosures printed/drilled. But the brand itself was so boring I forgot what it was, sorry guys.