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I'm going to describe a setup that I would like:

A very powerful reverb and delay engine with lots of algorithms and control over diffusion, damping, pre-delay, ping ponging, multiple delay lines, modulation, all that deep lore ish. I think this is a rack desire because I understand there are many units that do this on the cheap. Stereo, delay-based modulation seems to be pretty common for these units and I'd happily take that too, though it's not the focus. I also would like this unit (or units) to be controlled in real time with knobs/faders/anything hands-on. Ideally I'd like a knob for each parameter but I'll take what I can get. I'd be plugging this setup at the output of a mixer to print some tracks through the effect while twiddling the effects, and I really like controlling effects spontaneously.

I like character and I prefer frugality. What do I need?

I don't know anything like that with even close to everything on a knob. Rack is all about menu diving. I have some that use external controllers, and even those still have lots of menu diving.

Eventide H series is the industry standard for what your looking for, but man are those controls shite.

There are modern things that may be better, but you won't find them without being crazy in price.

What you want is a computer and plugins. Sorry to say. Invest in a midi controller, and spend the time mapping it once.

Dang. I was figuring an external MIDI controller would be necessary to assign the parameters, but I've never done that so have no idea what it involves logistically. If it's tedious and not conducive to spontaneity, then maybe plugins + controller really is the best way to go. I can work with that, I like plugins, I just have more fun mixing down with my hands, so I guess I gotta find the right controller.

Inb4 Furtkamp.

If the MIDI implementation on the processor isn't a joke, something that can send continuous control messages for multiple knobs or sliders (or virtual controls) should get your "all knobs" thing at least a bit satisfied. If you look at all the parameters on some PCM-80 algorithms, though, and you realize that you would need a fuck-ton of knobs to make it work--there might not be enough CC messages available, either.

Still worth it. Take the 80: You can save presets with a "soft row" of important controls to quickly access on a single menu row, or patch the continuous controllers to the functions you want in that preset (or do both, so your "deep" tweaks from the soft row have less diving to get to.) The 80 doesn't even have that many algorithms, but you can do a lot with them. Mastering one flexible algorithm may end up being faster than mastering all the pedals it can replace.

Some guys who could play any gear have been using this stuff since it came out and keep finding new things. Those who get the most out of these boxes treat them like instruments to learn in their own right. If you don't have the time or the patience, it might not be the right fit. Time is my major drawback, but I've thrown in this way despite that.

Gone Fission wrote:If the MIDI implementation on the processor isn't a joke, something that can send continuous control messages for multiple knobs or sliders (or virtual controls) should get your "all knobs" thing at least a bit satisfied. If you look at all the parameters on some PCM-80 algorithms, though, and you realize that you would need a fuck-ton of knobs to make it work--there might not be enough CC messages available, either.

Still worth it. Take the 80: You can save presets with a "soft row" of important controls to quickly access on a single menu row, or patch the continuous controllers to the functions you want in that preset (or do both, so your "deep" tweaks from the soft row have less diving to get to.) The 80 doesn't even have that many algorithms, but you can do a lot with them. Mastering one flexible algorithm may end up being faster than mastering all the pedals it can replace.

Some guys who could play any gear have been using this stuff since it came out and keep finding new things. Those who get the most out of these boxes treat them like instruments to learn in their own right. If you don't have the time or the patience, it might not be the right fit. Time is my major drawback, but I've thrown in this way despite that.

When it comes to CC messages, is that limited by the unit I'm trying to control, or the controller itself? In other words, do I need a delay rack that has enough CC channels? I've never really set up MIDI hardware more complex than a keyboard controller for my computer.

Relatable title.

I'm still mostly a MIDIot about these things, do get better advice. But generally a device can map MIDI messages to controls past program change or it can't. The manual will tell you. Some MIDI control devices won't do CC at all. Some will only handle one or two CC messages. Some can do complex SYSEX control messages specific to your processor, which can be great for editing but is slow for performance because MIDI isn't a particularly fast communication standard.

I'm getting by on an iOS app called MIDI Designer, running CC virtual sliders that are assigned to roles in a preset. I have scanned MIDI control pedals and am not enthused with the limits of the affordable stuff. If I ever get the time for it, I'm thinking of just building my own MIDI pedal off a Raspberry Pi or Arduino brain so I can do without design limits on CC messages or expression inputs (which needs analog to digital converters).

friendship wrote:When it comes to CC messages, is that limited by the unit I'm trying to control, or the controller itself? In other words, do I need a delay rack that has enough CC channels? I've never really set up MIDI hardware more complex than a keyboard controller for my computer.

MIDI is a very rudimentary language. Control change function is somewhat set in stone regardless of what you are using. There are 128 standard CC voices that can speak on a given MIDI channel, and to my knowledge each CC command is limited to 128 steps. The list is linked below:

http://nickfever.com/music/midi-cc-list

Generally speaking, most modern rack multi-effects should allow you to exploit CC, either listing what address a given parameter responds to in the manual, or allowing you to change that address. Controllers will allow you to change the address their end as well. Once you line everything up, you're good to go - but usually there is menu diving involved which can be a turn-off. Once that is set up it should just turn on and play. I've operated an archaic Digitech DSP128+ (late 1980s I believe) in this manner with a JL Cooper Fadermaster (same era), and while the Digitech offers surprisingly deep control over a reverb engine and also has a multitap delay, modulation is limited and you cannot stack effects. The sound quality is also decidedly lofi.

Beyond the standard CC map comes sysex (system exclusive) which is where you find a MIDI controller made by a company that only works with one or two of their own devices (see Roland PG series controller). DRodriguez mentioned Eventide H series, in the H3000 some of the effect parameter settings are vastly deeper than 128 steps, so control with a standard MIDI CC limitations will either produce very noticeable stair stepping or limit a parameter change to a sliver of what is available. Eventide touches upon that here:

https://www.eventideaudio.com/support/d ... modulation

TL;DR I'd google "(your device) midi controller" and see if it returns a lot of horror stories or not.

Eivind August wrote:Inb4 Furtkamp.

Lolz! I believe he would recommend the Lexicon Vortex among others... I've looked at getting one of those based on his continually enthusiastic recs. I guess it's more of a werd delay though? And verb?

I have a Yamaha FX500 that's pretty fun and didn't cost much. It's rack mountable with a little extension thing you can buy (not sure if they're readily available tho. Regardless, enjoyable box. And one of the presets is the Slowdive sound

popvulture wrote:

Eivind August wrote:Inb4 Furtkamp.

Lolz! I believe he would recommend the Lexicon Vortex among others... I've looked at getting one of those based on his continually enthusiastic recs. I guess it's more of a werd delay though? And verb?

I've got one because of him actually

I'd call it a weird modulation more than a delay machine, but there's delay and hold. No reverbs out of the box, but you could fake one.

If you're gonna go the rack + controller way, another option is something like the Ensoniq DP/4 or DP/2. They offer 4 or 2 simultaneous effects and are held in pretty high regard as quality effects along with the Lexicon PCM's and Eventide H3000's of the world. There's a DP/4+ as well, but it supposedly lacks some of the charm of the other two devices. They aren't too expensive either.
Another option is the later Yamaha SPX's.

Although the Eventide menus can be deep and allow you to tweak all manner of parameters, the newer units like the Eclipse and H8000HW are pretty user friendly if you don't want to get into all the tiny details and still allows you to find all kinds of new sounds since the main parameters of a given effect preset don't require diving into submenus. Try out something like the Eclipse with a decent midi controller and I don't think you'll be disappointed with the results.

Sardocasm wrote:Although the Eventide menus can be deep and allow you to tweak all manner of parameters, the newer units like the Eclipse and H8000HW are pretty user friendly if you don't want to get into all the tiny details and still allows you to find all kinds of new sounds since the main parameters of a given effect preset don't require diving into submenus. Try out something like the Eclipse with a decent midi controller and I don't think you'll be disappointed with the results.

Might be disappointed by the cost though?

Would it work to be able to modulate all of these parameters in real time?



And these are only 2 objects of thousands.

Axoloti is less than $80 USD. You would have to build/customize an enclosure and wire up your knobs, but it's not too much effort to get it up and running... despite how Invisible Man and I make it seem.

Edit to add that anything/everything is also mappable to midi so you wouldn't even need to futz with an enclosure or kmobs if you didn't want to.

crochambeau wrote:

friendship wrote:When it comes to CC messages, is that limited by the unit I'm trying to control, or the controller itself? In other words, do I need a delay rack that has enough CC channels? I've never really set up MIDI hardware more complex than a keyboard controller for my computer.

MIDI is a very rudimentary language. Control change function is somewhat set in stone regardless of what you are using. There are 128 standard CC voices that can speak on a given MIDI channel, and to my knowledge each CC command is limited to 128 steps. The list is linked below:

http://nickfever.com/music/midi-cc-list

Generally speaking, most modern rack multi-effects should allow you to exploit CC, either listing what address a given parameter responds to in the manual, or allowing you to change that address. Controllers will allow you to change the address their end as well. Once you line everything up, you're good to go - but usually there is menu diving involved which can be a turn-off. Once that is set up it should just turn on and play. I've operated an archaic Digitech DSP128+ (late 1980s I believe) in this manner with a JL Cooper Fadermaster (same era), and while the Digitech offers surprisingly deep control over a reverb engine and also has a multitap delay, modulation is limited and you cannot stack effects. The sound quality is also decidedly lofi.

Beyond the standard CC map comes sysex (system exclusive) which is where you find a MIDI controller made by a company that only works with one or two of their own devices (see Roland PG series controller). DRodriguez mentioned Eventide H series, in the H3000 some of the effect parameter settings are vastly deeper than 128 steps, so control with a standard MIDI CC limitations will either produce very noticeable stair stepping or limit a parameter change to a sliver of what is available. Eventide touches upon that here:

https://www.eventideaudio.com/support/d ... modulation

TL;DR I'd google "(your device) midi controller" and see if it returns a lot of horror stories or not.

This is all really helpful information, thank you so much! I don't mind menu diving as long as doing so gets me to where I can control it with my hands. If I understand right, I have to set my controller to point each knob/slider/whatever to the CC channel corresponding to the parameter I want it to control on the effects unit, is that right? Sounds like I can start with a MIDI control surface to fux with my plugins until I decide on a rack unit.

The Vortex is great but tragically it lacks MIDI. It's a shame because if I could control more than one (ok two with expression pedal) parameters at once I would shit my butt.