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preamp tubes have been a big thing in my life recently. so i thought there should be a thread. there's a small one in the doom room, but i thought the subject could benefit from wider input. i have a specific question that i hope someone has great answers for, but in general i thought maybe a thread for discussions both technical and magical about these little wonders would be in order.

so, here's my question. how much does a balanced PI tube matter and how much would a fancy pants NOS tube matter in the PI position? basically, this arose from me getting a score on some fancy pants vintage tubes. as far as i know, none are necessarily balanced. i plan on putting them in the other tube spots, but is it going to suck or hurt something to put one in the PI? i'm pretty sure no one bothered with balanced tubes when my amp was made (late 70's), so i can't imagine it'll hurt anything. the other question is, how much is it really going make a difference on sound with a fancy expensive tube in the phase inverter spot? will i be wasting the magical vintage hoodoo by putting one there? i'll probably end up just trying it out and using my ears to answer that one. but overall i'm just wondering if i'm better off with the vintage magic tube in the PI or just leaving the balanced jj in there and experimenting with other tubes in the gain stages?

for the record, the fancy tubes i got are 1961 US made raytheon long black plates. and i CAN'T WAIT to try them out in my amp (a marshall jmp 2203), hopefully tonight. my efforts were foiled last night.

anyway, if anyone has answers or experience that'll help me, let me know. otherwise, feel free to post opinions or preferences about preamp tubes and argue about NOS vs new or whatever.

I just dropped by to say thanks for raising this in general discussion, broham.

bottom line is only you will know once you try. check out audiotubes.com for loads of info on nos tubes.

Here's an article that May interest you. Lots of good info

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/E ... eamp_Tubes

Quite some time back I replaced all the stock Shuguang 12AX7's in my Mesa Tremoverb with NOS tubes chosen specifically for each position. I went with some of the best Euro and US tubes for each position based on what I wanted.

I went with

2 NOS Mullard ECC83's in V1 & V2
2 NOS RFT ECC83 in V3 and V6
2 NOS GE 5751's in V4 and V5.

I went with the Mullards because they're supposed to have a huge soundstage (the space we perceive a sound to occupy), rich midrange, plenty of bass, sparkling breathy highs, and lots of gorgeous defined and open sounding breakup. They are supposed to excel at clean and dirty tones. That's definitely how I'd describe them. My amps edge of break up to crunch tones are much more detailed and 3d sounding. Clean tones are sweeter, richer. Before there was a bit of boxiness on lower gain crunch tones, now they're much more glassy and rich sounding. The amps top end is more open, the sound is less compressed, the bass is still epic, and the mids are much more detailed and pleasant.

I went with the RFT in V3 because it's a darker high gain tube known for cutting out fizz. Very smooth, lots and lots of gain, and excellent lowend and midrange with smooth treble. Also, just because I said smooth does not mean this tube will neuter the glorious grind of your favorite high gain crunch. Not the case at all.

Once again I saw a definite improvement in my amp's higher gain tones. Also, I've found it allows me to lower my gain, because tones that earlier were unpleasant/harsh now sound much more open and organic. I don't need as much compression to smooth out things, because they sound so rich and detailed with the added dynamic range.

I went with the RFT ECC83 in V6 for the phase splitter because I wanted a rugged high gain tube that could punish my output section harder. It is a balanced tube too, so I don't know if that makes a difference.

The GE 5751's in V4 and V5 were chosen for transparency, detail, & lower output (to cut excess compression caused by the fx loop buffer being in essence an additional variable gain-stage), and bullet proof construction. These are military tubes, and will probably outlast me. I could not stand using my loop before. It seemed to neuter the amp's tone no matter how it was set, so everything was always run up front, and I avoided mods/delays for the most part. Now I can run it and it's gorgeous. No excess compression, it's very open and dynamic almost as if there's nothing there.

I know the pedals and cables add a little extra signal degradation, but if I run a jumper in the loop, and set it for unity gain I can't tell a difference at all.

Also, the reverb does sound more enveloping, but that might just be because the entire amp sounds in two words bigger and enveloping. Less directional, more like the sound is jumping out of the speakers.

I also have some experience swapping tubes in my KMD XV100SD. When the power tubes went south, I got a full set of tubes, power and pre to have spares on hand. It originally came with RCA Grey Plates. I got some Tungsol 12AX7. I popped them in, and they definitely had a more Brit like chainsaw grind to them, but could be a little pingy. The RCA's on the other hand have a chewier smoother midrange with more fur, less grind, and smoother breathier sparkly highs. The Tungsols sounded more modern/solid, the Grey Plates more Foghat/smokey if that makes sense.

The Tungsols are great sounding tubes, just a little brighter/more biting while the Grey Plates are more chewy/rich. The Tungsols also have a pretty big bottom. I like that the Tungsols lower gain tones crunch tones are not boxy/harsh, great Marshall amp style tube. The KMD is a JCM800 flavored amp, and the Tungsols definitely played up that vibe.

If you want the original proto-typical recto tone, then the Shuguang are great tubes, but my tastes grew away from that, so I tailored the amp for what I was looking for.

I definitely love vintage Euro and American tubes, but the Tungsols did impress me. Great clarity, big sound, just can be slightly hard on the top end. Then again in all fairness that's running into a quad of Tungsol 6550's, and they definitely have a very present grind to them. Maybe running into a set of wound up EL34's would smooth out the top and emphasize that rich mid grind even more.

HOLY SHIT!!!! THESE THINGS ARE AWESOME!!! My amp sounds so fucking good. I've always thought it sounded awesome, but this is a new level. It's like it opened up my eq section to be two or three times as big. The highs have smoothed out and lost the harshness they had before. I can turn up the presence now and actually have it sound good. Smooth rich and crisp are the words that come to mind for the upper eq range. As far as lows, I used to just keep the bass knob cranked. It's what I had to do to have a decent low end and depth cause those jj's were so harsh. It's like my bass knob has been given back to me as a Christmas present or something. I can actually use it now. Obviously I had to turn it down, but the lows are much bigger now and also tighter. I'm really going to need time to figure out the sound and eq balance to get it at it's best, but this is amazing.

As far as the phase inverter, what a huge difference this makes. I almost just left it alone cause the other two tubes made it sound so fucking good. I don't have a tube tester, so I don't know how far out of balance this tube is, but it wasn't sold as balanced. But this one tube may have made the biggest difference. The amp is noticeably louder and gainier(is that a word?). And that one tube really opened up the eq. The others helped considerably, but I was assuming v1 would make the biggest difference and the others to a lesser degree. But the pi was as big of a change as v1 and v2 was very close.

I can't imagine going back to new production tubes, at least not with this amp.

misterstomach wrote:HOLY SHIT!!!! THESE THINGS ARE AWESOME!!! My amp sounds so fucking good. I've always thought it sounded awesome, but this is a new level. It's like it opened up my eq section to be two or three times as big. The highs have smoothed out and lost the harshness they had before. I can turn up the presence now and actually have it sound good. Smooth rich and crisp are the words that come to mind for the upper eq range. As far as lows, I used to just keep the bass knob cranked. It's what I had to do to have a decent low end and depth cause those jj's were so harsh. It's like my bass knob has been given back to me as a Christmas present or something. I can actually use it now. Obviously I had to turn it down, but the lows are much bigger now and also tighter. I'm really going to need time to figure out the sound and eq balance to get it at it's best, but this is amazing.

As far as the phase inverter, what a huge difference this makes. I almost just left it alone cause the other two tubes made it sound so fucking good. I don't have a tube tester, so I don't know how far out of balance this tube is, but it wasn't sold as balanced. But this one tube may have made the biggest difference. The amp is noticeably louder and gainier(is that a word?). And that one tube really opened up the eq. The others helped considerably, but I was assuming v1 would make the biggest difference and the others to a lesser degree. But the pi was as big of a change as v1 and v2 was very close.

I can't imagine going back to new production tubes, at least not with this amp.

Glad you're happy man. I used to feel the same way after going from all Shuguang to Mullards, RFT's, and GE's, but these Tungsol's were a pleasant surprise.

They really do sound big and rich, if a little harder. I've also heard good things about the Vostok, Svetlana, Mullard reissue, and even newer generation Shuguang (and this coming from people that know some good freakin tones, I've heard the clips) 12AX7/ECC83's, but don't have experience with them myself.

But yeah, it's nice when the tones you hoped were in your amp, but you couldn't quite get to finally come gushing out. Playing with tubes, mods (modded my T-verb to optimize for EL34's at correct bias), and speakers has really been a rewarding process.

Same with fiddles, switching pickups and electronics to really nail what you wanted instead of just getting so close.

Uncle Grandfather wrote:bottom line is only you will know once you try.

And even then....there are no guarantees.
But in a late 70s JMP...old Mullard ecc83/12ax7 in v1 are in a class by themselves afaic

i upgraded my MPA Gold preamp from EHX stock ones to NOS telefunkens and the difference was pretty large. definitely worth it IMO

Part of me really wishes that I 'got' tube rolling. The other part of me is glad I can't hear a pants-changingly big difference.

D.o.S. wrote:Part of me really wishes that I 'got' tube rolling. The other part of me is glad I can't hear a pants-changingly big difference.

My experience has been that the change from old to fresh tubes is what sounds dramatic. From modern production to NOS, I haven't noticed a difference that justifies the time/expense, but then I'm not a tube wizard. Maybe the dudes in this thread are comparing fresh new tubes to fresh NOS tubes and are noticing a big diff.

friendship wrote:

D.o.S. wrote:Part of me really wishes that I 'got' tube rolling. The other part of me is glad I can't hear a pants-changingly big difference.

My experience has been that the change from old to fresh tubes is what sounds dramatic. From modern production to NOS, I haven't noticed a difference that justifies the time/expense, but then I'm not a tube wizard. Maybe the dudes in this thread are comparing fresh new tubes to fresh NOS tubes and are noticing a big diff.

Even comparing well used old tubes to right out of the box new production tubes there are noticeable differences in tone & feel.

Oh god, I've spent so fucking much on NOS and ANOS preamp tubes for all my amps in the past. I've compared them several times with modern ones and there's no comparison. Some amps make a larger difference than others, but overall it's such a good investment. The amp that had the biggest difference, to me, was my early Ampeg V4. It sounded like shit through several sets of tubes for a few years until one day I got all USA made glass and BOOM, there it was. Fucking magical. The PI is my favorite position to play with. Anyways, I'm not really contributing new info to the thread, but just wanted to come in and high five everyone. Woo

Dude, it's a thread on an Internet forum. It's all about high fives and opinions. New info is great, but not necessary. Input appreciated.

i'm curious about what anyone has to share about good places to look for NOS or ANOS tubes. i know a couple of dealers, but it'd be cool to know where other people like.

also curious about what folks favorite new production tubes are. like has anyone tried those expensive fancy pants northern electric? at $50/tube for a 12ax7 you'd hope it sounded as good as NOS. i'd never even heard of them recently.
i don't like jj's. they seem harsh to me. and i've had a bad preamp tube in two different retube orders in a row.
i used to have an amp that had some kind of chinese tubes that actually sounded pretty awesome in the amp they were in. i think they may have been a type from the 90's that isn't made anymore, but they were good. after i changed them i never got that amp to sound as good again.
i've had the usual sovteks and ehx and mesa (which were probably all the same thing) and not noticed much outstanding about them. i once played a vtm 120 that had just been retubed with all mesa branded russian tubes and it was the best sounding vtm 120 i've played to this day, and i've played a few.

i'm pretty sold on buying old tubes for the preamp at this point, but i'm curious what people's thoughts are on new tubes.