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I couldn't find any threads about writing music or songcraft here so I thought I would start one.
Basically, I have auditioned for a bass player position and now I am soon to be or am the sole song writer. While making basslines by myself takes no thought, I now have to figure out how to make the guitarist's parts. So now I have a weird mental block, that I can't seem to overcome, and I have come to you all, for help and advice.

How do you write full, cohesive songs?
How do you make solos/breakdowns not slide off into wankery?
Using dynamics (this is the hardest thing for me to figure out)
How to use the classical scales to their best effect

Also, if you have or know a good article about songwritng, post it here! I hope this becomes a very general but deep resource.

Improv and then refinement has what I've always lived by. Record what comes naturally, then refine and figure out what exactly is and isn't working, edit down, and then build up again

Dude, I literally logged in to start a thread identical to this!

I really like the song structures that I use, but I find myself getting into a rut sometimes - I notice after writing a few tunes that they end up quite similar structure wise.

At the moment I tend to write like this. Write an awesome riff. Find a tempo, key signature and whatever that works. Then keep jamming in that tempo until I find something else that's cool. I write everything down in Guitar Pro so that I can alter the tempo easily, or compose harmonies or whatever. But mostly so that I can come back to it later. It's rare that I'll write two cool things in one sitting, as I tend to get stuck on the first cool thing. So I'll write it up, jam over it, jam on it whatever and then leave it. Eventually I'll come back to it, or be writing something else and realise it would work with a riff from a while back.

So I'll copy and paste them into the same file and see how they work together. Often they'll work ok, otherwise I wouldn't have thought to put them together. But I'll try and find a way to build the one riff into the other. Maybe I'll try and have one guitar playing the same rhythm from the first riff over the second, or change the first riff's chords to match the second or whatever. Or I'll mutate one riff slightly, then slightly again until I arrive at the new riff.

When it comes to getting a whole song down, my method at the moment is just to keep writing stuff, then to go back and edit it. Sometimes stuff that was in the category "oh fuck, this is awesome" gets ditched and I'll keep the harmony thing, make the harmony thing into the new main riff and then write a new harmony (or counterpoint or whatever). Sometimes I'll ditch the harmony and double down on the riff. But I'll usually copy what I had before killing it, throw it at the end of the song file and just leave it there. That way I can go back to old ideas or reincorporate them later.

So it's a really... REALLY inefficient process. It's iterative and kinda stupid. But it is working really well for me. I've written about a song a month for a few months now, which is nice. I normally just write riffs and get stuck on whole songs. But I couldn't do it without Guitar Pro - or a similar program. Recording stuff doesn't work as I have more of a visual memory.

But I still end up gravitating towards a similar song structure, and I don't like it...

I tend to start playing and work from there. There's a first impulse that sparks the rest of it and the other layers and instruments get inspired by the first riff usually

as mentioned previously - work with stuff that comes naturally. Ease into the grooves or work against them - whatever you feel. You just have to feel it. Best case scenario - you will ALWAYS know what the next thing needs to be. You'll hear it in your head. Maybe you'll get the feeling it needs to be more like *STARTS MAKING WEIRD NOISES* and *CONTINUES MAKING WEIRD NOISES* - which is always funny, but a little demanding when you're trying to write with someone else
Also - if you have capable musicians around you, try creating basic ideas and have them finish them Let them put character into them, creating just guidelines you feel are needed? Maybe?

Dynamics - in a band situation, I usually think that's not up to the composer anymore, it's up to the whole ensemble. It's okay to have something prepared, but from my experience, when you play the stuff with other people, it's going to change. The dynamics is the main thing that usually changes - you'll find out it can easily shift really far away from the original idea very naturally and still sound absolutely great so my advice on dynamics is "work with the other people and feel it out"

the wankery thing - when I played guitar in a band or in my project at home, the key thing was always PHRASING. If you have great phrasing, it's really hard to be wankerous. That especially felt important in my home project which was instrumental and there was usually lead guitar - but not in the traditional guitar virtuoso way I hope Phrasing is the key because it's connected to vocal qualities and silence.

Scales - never used scales deliberately, on purpose. I don't worry about theory except for rhythms I try not to let it tie me up

my experiences in music are wildly different:
a) used to be in a super-experimental prog-rock band (guitar) that in the end didn't make much sense (ever). Loads of notes, long songs, lots of composition, very busy, hard to play, demanding on concentration and discipline. People would compose whole tracks (well... mainly me and the other guitar player) and bring them to the others to be rehearsed. Not much space for personality or reinterpretation in my opinion...
When you actually use that approach for something meaningful such as a conceptual album or something like that, it's amazing, it serves a purpose. We did do that as well and in the four years I spent with the band, THAT was the time when I was really happy. Otherwise it felt very dehumanized, binding, impersonal ans stressful

b) one band i play with now (bass). Joined a seasoned dude who composed and programmed his own album, now i'm in the live band. Absolutely different approach, much more songy, much more time to enjoy myself, huge space for sound experimentation... Even though it's more simple, I feel much more happier, I feel I can finally experiment more and I feel appreciated. And I'm actually usually just playing the bass lines from the album - just phrasing them a bit differently here and there, working with the timbre, dynamics and personality. We generally took great liberties with the songs - the album will be very electronic-y and live it's just a rock trio doing weird trip-hop/alternative shit with noisy guitars and rumbling basses... So we had structures, but worked with the dynamics and timbres as we felt necessary.

c) the other band i'm with now (bass). Dudes in early 20s, playing some cool rock music. Driving bass, good, solid grooves, riffs. It doesn't matter if we compose the song beforehand or if we come up with just one riff - we work on it and jam at rehearsals. If there's a whole song, the one who wrote it tells/shows the other ones the first section and we just start playing it on repeat, finding the right bass groove, the right phrasing, the right drum beat. On to the next one and the next one... then play the whole thing a few times, get used to the changes, maybe stick something in the middle, do a break, silence, sharp part, whatever it needs. Or we just try and figure out new parts as we go on. We work the songs together and just absolutely follow our hearts. The main thing is that this way, the songs are never really done. They can always be altered, revisited, reworked. They're always sort of fluid. But this is probably the most natural and casual way of doing it i've experienced so far

I'm always changing my writing process, but the thing that I find really important is to have all the tools next to me ready to rock. If I have to run downstairs to grab a cable or an instrument or have to set up and re set up mics or something every ten minutes, it doesn't flow and it doesn't get done.

Often I write stuff based on a line in my mind, just a sudden idea for a melody. I like to think about melody/rhytm/stuff and then hum the shit out of it before I play it on the guitar; that way I don't wank too much. So yeah, create the song in your mind, maybe with the help of pen and paper.

Or I just make some shit while playing.

For me it's a bit of everything. Some songs come out a bit at a time, like goroth was saying I come up with a riff, then another, and I try to jam together the ones that feel like they'd work. Sometimes I come up with something and just play until I know what comes next, then play that. Sometimes I get a lyric or tune kicking around in my head all day and then get home and write it down and come up with a guitar part.

Very occasionallyI sit down, pick up my guitar, and play an entire new song, and sing the bones of the lyrics and melody first time. Those are the best days but maybe happens once a year.

Basically whenever inspiration strikes record it in some way, whether by writing or recording or software or just thinking about it till there's no way you can forget and writing it down the next chance you get.

Most of the time I'm not very prolific so don't take this as gospel but it's things that work for me. Some people like a defined process, most of the time if I sit down and think "I'm going to write a song" everything I come up with is shit.

monkeydancer wrote:Some people like a defined process, most of the time if I sit down and think "I'm going to write a song" everything I come up with is shit.

This is pretty spot on.

Depends.

1. A random quote/word/line of text sparks a certain feeling/melody in the ol'd noggin.
2. A melody occurs out of nowhere, usually from making sounds out of boredom or while doing some sort of task that I'm not very keen on doing.
3. Messing around on the guitar and something cool happens and I build more around it.
4. Listening to others play (guitar, synth, bass, drums etc) and mentally set that on loop and join in later when I'm by myself. This is actually quite common for me.

As you can probably tell, I'm not an improvising person who likes to just jump into a session and just go for it. I need time to process

skullservant wrote:Improv and then refinement has what I've always lived by.

Yeah same here basically. I've always been big on improvisation and aim to just sit and play guitar unplugged for an hour or two each day, generally I will come up with tiny fragments that I like, then carry those over to the next day and add to them/change them etc and the song kind of builds slowly but surely. I find working at this pace allows me to imagine any other parts that will go with the guitar at any given time rather than me just coming up with some riff instantaneously and having to think of an entire section's playing for other instrument at once.

When you say you're the 'sole songwriter' what does that mean? Like the others aren't willing to contribute to the writing process? That would drive me mad.

Chords.
I just play weird chords constantly and try to find ones that I like and put them together.
Then I spend 6 months playing the same few things over and over again trying to perfect it all.
Then I realize I'm too neurotic to do anything productive and give up.
Then I start all over again!

To use this method a D.A.W is a must have.
I usually start with the lyrics first. A good song is about a good story to tell.
Then I create a drum beat based on how I want the lyrics phrased.
Then I sing a crappy scratch track of the lyric over the drum beat.
That gives me something to then explore the vocal melody and find a chord progression that works with it.
Once I have all that worked out, the song kind of writes itself after that.
It is kind of a bass ackwards way of doing it but it seems to work for me.
Also it means that the guitar and bass parts are created to suit the song, instead of trying to find lyrics to suit a chord progression or melody.
With that method I find that I can come up with some interesting guitar and bass parts I might never have otherwise come up with.

Whenver I feel like I'm going to write a song I just watch this and quit trying.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etRUQS0UmJs[/youtube]

My best friends are my looper and DAW. The looper is terrific when noodleing around my mysef and coming up with either harmonies or a sympathetic riff to follow what is currently happening. The daw is invaluable when impro jams yield those golden moments. Most of my favorites were the result of fucking around at practices and then going back later and figuring out what the fuck we did.
As for being the sole songwriter, are the other guys nervous to share what they do? I'd encourage them to share ideas. Interaction between differing styles and approaches is the best thing.
I try to always keep an open mind and to at least play through an idea once before making a decision on it. Collaboration rules.

Aw sweet I didn't expect this kind of response! There is a lot to take in but I seem to have been doing the opposite of what everyone here sort of does: start with the root note, make up its fifth, third, second, and seventh note, then write four to eight measures of melody. I find this way I have something to base everything else on. I've realized I either write melodies that sound like The Cure or Blink-182. Not exactly metal haha.
PetZounds: I play bass, so I don't play chords (except power chords) but I guess I should pick the guitar to explore the chord shapes eh? I thought about it but I don't get inspired as much with a guitar

backwardsvoyager wrote:...When you say you're the 'sole songwriter' what does that mean? Like the others aren't willing to contribute to the writing process? That would drive me mad.

No not like that. The leader only knows how to read tabs, but the lead guitarist knows the notes on the neck. I am asked/told to write the rhythm lines for myself and a drummer, while the guitarist is given the key chords and he writes his own solos. This is better than what I first thought, I thought no one else knew where the notes are on the neck, so would have to write everyone's tabs. Although the leader's lack of know how frigthens me a little.

UglyCasanova wrote:Depends.
1. A random quote/word/line of text sparks a certain feeling/melody in the ol'd noggin.
2. A melody occurs out of nowhere, usually from making sounds out of boredom or while doing some sort of task that I'm not very keen on doing.
3. Messing around on the guitar and something cool happens and I build more around it.
4. Listening to others play (guitar, synth, bass, drums etc) and mentally set that on loop and join in later when I'm by myself. This is actually quite common for me.
As you can probably tell, I'm not an improvising person who likes to just jump into a session and just go for it. I need time to process

You sound like me. I might ride the root for a minute before I make a bassline in jams. And I have a notepad for quotes in newspaper or what I hear ppl say. I wanted to be a poet when I was in high school.
D.o.S.: that first song inspired me to steal the bass line. Thanks you.