Page 1 of 3
How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:57 am
by soldersqueeze
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/vfe ... ior-series$50.00 for three boards? I'm sure they're selling them at a fair price, and I'm sure they've cost a lot of cash in R&D and manufacturing so I'm not trying to slag them off. Just curious to know if any of the DIY builders here would plump for it? Do you guys think it's worth the effort/ money?
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:17 am
by Mike
This looks like it would unnecessarily complicate things with little benefit. I would not buy it for the following reasons:
1. It still relies on a mechanical switch, a common point of failure. A good momentary switch (assuming that is what it uses) is going to cost at least as much as a regular ol' 3PDT. Except this has the added benefit of being...
2. Surface mount, and difficult to repair if there is a problem. I can replace a 3PDT in a couple of minutes, I've got a whole bunch of them, and I fully understand how they work. How long to replace a surface mount component, including debugging, maybe including shipping time on surface mount components?
3. AMZ already sells a similar product ($7 for the board and microprocessor, you provide the rest, through-hole construction).
Compared to current switching methods, is this cheaper? Simpler? Smaller? More reliable? Easier to service? Unlikely.
Mike
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:57 am
by eatyourguitar
I do not like VFE's layout at all. and why does a true bypass relay PCB contain a TL072? maybe the pedal circuit is contained all on the same PCB?
there are two people who have been selling true bypass PCB's with panasonic relays.
http://www.pedalsync.com/http://jackdeville.com/clickless-system/cltb@ mike
no benefit you say? first of all, 3PDT are both expensive and unreliable. 3PDT is a common point of failure when I do repairs. you can definitely find something cheaper with less moving parts to fail. and even a failed momentary wont kill your performance on stage if it is remotely switched. lets talk about tin whiskers. gas filled relays completely eliminate the problem.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvl1bR5N1U4[/youtube]
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:58 pm
by Mike
A relay board at $16.67 is much more expensive than even Smallbear's $5 price on 3PDT switches. As you said, 3PDT is a common point of failure. So, if reliability is the selling point,
surely you won't be using one of the xwing switches, or even the soft touch switches, else you are stuck with the failure issue. Of course, you can use tactile switches, but you have the failure issue again, and have to come up with a reliable and non-destructive way to press the button. Two mixing boards in a row indicate that that tactile switches would be a pretty bad idea, even in the medium term. My understanding is that Visual Sound went with paddle-type switches because all of the other options have reliability issues.
I'm seeing Carling momentary switches at around $10, now bringing the cost of this relay board up to $27.67. That's $22.73 more than a 3PDT, or roughly the cost of
everything else required to build many pedals.
And actually...
eatyourguitar wrote:@ mike
no benefit you say?
Mike wrote:This looks like it would unnecessarily complicate things with little benefit.
My opinion is that a better idea would be to have a foreign firm wire up a
boatload of 3PDT switches with something like a Molex KK connector. Then, when a commercial effect breaks, the company can just send out a new switch-- no soldering required-- for easy, less-expensive end user repair. End user repair is a completely feasible option, at least it was when Whirlpool had me replace the relay board that failed in my water heater. Failed relays, too-- go figure. I wasn't so lucky with the failed relay in my furnace-- that one cost me $300+.
It's ok if you disagree, but I think I've made a decent argument for why these are not likely to be superior to good ol' 3PDT switches, at least not at 500%+ the cost.
Mike
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:49 pm
by eatyourguitar
you made some good points in your second post. although the relay is more like $2 in bulk. the PCB and resistors are cheap if you are the supplier, not the customer. I think behringer did an excellent job in how the proper industrial design of a pedal housing can greatly increases the life of the SMT tact switch. $2.50 total is still cheaper than $3.50 for 3PDT. the relay also has fewer moving parts and a lower failure rate on the datasheet. I can't even find the number of cycles spec for a taiwan blue 3PDT.
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:56 am
by McSpunckle
I'm all for relay bypass, but are you guys really having this much trouble out of 3PDTs? I asked this on Facebook once, and it seems the DIY community is the only set of people having trouble with them. Mayhaps you're overheating your switches? They do melt pretty easy...
I wouldn't pay anything for a board, but I'd love it if someone selling these boards would post up some info on how relay bypass is done. Lots of cool things would come from it just being common knowledge. They look like pretty simple circuits, other than the programmed microcontroller-- but why couldn't this info just be public, and one of the DIY pedal parts sites sell them?
I HATE SECRETS. THEY MAKE ME ANGRY.
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:03 pm
by Gone Fission
The only justification I see for paying more per board than a 3PDT is that some other housekeeping is thrown in (pull-downs and such). Yeah, a few cents more in parts and a little soldering time. Not helping the argument. I have more experience with electronic switching than relay switching, but I haven't seen a real uptick in reliability -- quite the opposite.
Hell, Maybe someone wants those. I'm amazed that people ever spring for the helper pcbs for 3PDT switches. But I don't. Designing that sort of thing into a whole PCB layout, sure, or as a break-off as Caitlinbread did on their DIY kits, but I'm not paying a couple bucks for that as an add on to my board or someone else's.
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:25 pm
by multi_s
Gone Fission wrote: I'm amazed that people ever spring for the helper pcbs for 3PDT switches.
so much this.
McSpunckle wrote: wouldn't pay anything for a board, but I'd love it if someone selling these boards would post up some info on how relay bypass is done. Lots of cool things would come from it just being common knowledge. They look like pretty simple circuits, other than the programmed microcontroller-- but why couldn't this info just be public, and one of the DIY pedal parts sites sell them?
I HATE SECRETS. THEY MAKE ME ANGRY.
just out of curiosity, what is it about relay switching that is being kept a secret? i think there is lots of info available on relays. iirc there is even some very old tutorials by rg keen and im pretty sure that guy is not even using an mcu to trigger the relays, so if that is the stumbling point a remedy already exists. a quick look at diystompboxes shows many threads with schems, discusions, etc....
so ya not trying to sound rude at all, just honestly asking what it is you'd like to see that you don't already have access too?
in general i think
most of these fabbed boards miss a crucial point which seems to always lead the discussion of them to a cost comparison between a board and a 3pdt etc. the capability of some sort of logic and a relay or two is much more flexible then a stomp switch ever could be. unfortunately it is rare anyone ever implements anything creative or with any such capability, instead all this hardware just mimics what a dpdt does.
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:38 pm
by eatyourguitar
McSpunckle wrote:I'm all for relay bypass, but are you guys really having this much trouble out of 3PDTs? I asked this on Facebook once, and it seems the DIY community is the only set of people having trouble with them. Mayhaps you're overheating your switches? They do melt pretty easy...
I guess I should say that of all the beat to shit toured on pedals that end up in the shop, majority of them need a new 3PDT. users are doing something to them that kills footswitches before pots. or they just don't hold up to N cycles.
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:15 am
by McSpunckle
multi_s wrote:Gone Fission wrote: I'm amazed that people ever spring for the helper pcbs for 3PDT switches.
so much this.
McSpunckle wrote: wouldn't pay anything for a board, but I'd love it if someone selling these boards would post up some info on how relay bypass is done. Lots of cool things would come from it just being common knowledge. They look like pretty simple circuits, other than the programmed microcontroller-- but why couldn't this info just be public, and one of the DIY pedal parts sites sell them?
I HATE SECRETS. THEY MAKE ME ANGRY.
just out of curiosity, what is it about relay switching that is being kept a secret? i think there is lots of info available on relays. iirc there is even some very old tutorials by rg keen and im pretty sure that guy is not even using an mcu to trigger the relays, so if that is the stumbling point a remedy already exists. a quick look at diystompboxes shows many threads with schems, discusions, etc....
so ya not trying to sound rude at all, just honestly asking what it is you'd like to see that you don't already have access too?
in general i think
most of these fabbed boards miss a crucial point which seems to always lead the discussion of them to a cost comparison between a board and a 3pdt etc. the capability of some sort of logic and a relay or two is much more flexible then a stomp switch ever could be. unfortunately it is rare anyone ever implements anything creative or with any such capability, instead all this hardware just mimics what a dpdt does.
I was being hyperbolic. I was sort of hoping the caps and feigned anger would make it apparent I wasn't completely serious.
Most people selling the microcontroller based kits aren't putting up the info, even though most of them seem to post on the DIY pages, and it just irks me when people that are normally really helpful with schematics and stuff don't put up something so simple.
But, yeah, here's a couple of sources for relay bypass:
http://stompville.co.uk/?p=260 (using a microcontroller-- including the code in the comments)
And using a 4069:
http://www.fredric.co.uk/blog/134-using ... rue-bypass
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:29 pm
by multi_s
yes i caught the caps thing.
i was jsut saying that even if you are only partially serious, the info is out there.
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:44 pm
by timhulio
That second one is my layout. I've built maybe 10-20 pedals using that circuit and it works nicely. The reasons I don't use it more often have been mentioned - parts count, build time, cost. I was actually really impressed by VFE's multi-purpose daughter board to mount the input/output jacks, relay switching and what looks like power supply filtering, polarity protection and maybe vref.
You can also use a 555 timer to toggle a relay. I've not built that but I will soon:
http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/page9.htmThe ubiquitous blue 3PDT isn't great. They break. Not too often, but they do. I prefer to use Millenium Bypass with the more reliable Alpha DPDT switch. That or use the Alpha DPDT for buffered bypass (I'm not a true bypass purist!)
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:54 pm
by multi_s
timhulio wrote:That second one is my layout.
the mountain has come to mohammed.
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:27 am
by Chankgeez
Ron Popeil wrote:Introducing the new Ronco Pedal Company Ronco Series.
You'll get a quality pedal with great tone and lots of versatility, all at a great price.
How much would you pay for relay switching?
Every Ronco Series pedal will use a basic 3-knob format, vinyl sticker graphics by artist Kroakjak, and the same knobs across the entire lineup.
But wait there's more.
All Ronco Pedals are made with top quality components, and the Ronco Series will be no exception. This includes TrueRoncoSoft true bypass true relay switching, WILMA capacitors, industrial Cartmang footswitch, Nütruk Jacks, and much, much more.
Now, how much would pay?
Pedals are available only through this TV offer for a limited time only.
Act now!!!
If you like to build or modify your own pedals, you should really check out the TrueRoncoSoft Bypass system at the $50 backer level. It uses true bypass, relay switching in combination with solid state FEET switching. The result is a 1000% true bypass pedal with a smooth on/off transition. While no switching system is perfectly silent, the TrueSoft Bypass system is a good as true bypass gets (but maybe not as good as truer bypass). We've even included some drop-down & current limiting resistors to make it easy to modify or build new effects. Instructions & a schematic of the circuit will be provided if you choose this reward.
Now how much would you pay?
Call now and we'll include two pedal cradles, valued at $39.99 and guaranteed to protect your pedals from rampant static electricity.
Now, how much would you pay?
Re: How much would you pay for relay switching?
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:51 am
by multi_s
i would pay enough such that he doesn't have to name his company and pedal series the same thing.