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jirodreamsofdank wrote:Absolutely shameful for Democrats that it's so close.

You can't ignore suppression, the impact of deranged American Protestantism, ingrained white supremacy, etc. for the overall result but losing ground with Latino voters is absurd. They are not identity-driven like Black voters (or many other idpol sub-demos), because there is no "Latino" identity - people of Guatemalan and Mexican and Cuban descent do not think of themselves as being altogether similar. They are, though, poorer and more likely to not have a college degree - you have to win them over with policy, with improving their material circumstances. Kinda like 'working class whites' minus the deranged evangelical streak.

But Democrats would rather try to win suburban Republicans than anyone from the working class. If they lose ground with working class Black voters, they won't be able to win the local dog catcher race.

That's true, but there's a big conservative community (especially for the folks hailing from Cuba, Venezuela, and other countries like that) that absolutely recoils at anything that has a hint of socialism, though, and that's apparently the key to getting their votes. Of course, there's some irony in the fact that Florida also voted for a $15 minimum wage (GOVERNMENT MEDDLING OF THE HIGHEST ORDER) while going for Trump, but, as you pointed out, people tend to be much more "for" socialist policies when they directly benefit from it.

So that's why I'm not sure it's particularly shameful for the Dems that it's this close, to be honest. For as much as people bandy on about "the left" the truth is that on a national level "the left" is a lot smaller than people tend to believe, whether they're for it or against it.

Pepe wrote:Well ... I hadn't thought that the result would turn out to be this close. And I stayed up all night for THIS?

You could've asked. We would've told you that vote countin' is gonna take a lot longer than usual.

It's really something that Trump can punch himself in the balls at every possible juncture and STILL have so much support.

Yeah, and on a slightly lower level, how people think Lindsey Graham is even doing an OK job, I'll never know.

[q]That's true, but there's a big conservative community (especially for the folks hailing from Cuba, Venezuela, and other countries like that) that absolutely recoils at anything that has a hint of socialism, though, and that's apparently the key to getting their votes. Of course, there's some irony in the fact that Florida also voted for a $15 minimum wage (GOVERNMENT MEDDLING OF THE HIGHEST ORDER) while going for Trump, but, as you pointed out, people tend to be much more "for" socialist policies when they directly benefit from it.

So that's why I'm not sure it's particularly shameful for the Dems that it's this close, to be honest. For as much as people bandy on about "the left" the truth is that on a national level "the left" is a lot smaller than people tend to believe, whether they're for it or against it.[/q]

The vast (and I mean vaaaaaast) majority of Latino voters in the US aren't Cuban or Venzuelan, though - they're Mexican-American, Puerto Rican, Dominican, Guatemalan, Salvadoran, etc.. The emigre communities of people who are still mad grandpa's slaves were freed are small and reactionary - and should be, for the most part, ignored. Focusing your efforts on those communities, as the Democrats did this time, does nothing to help with 85% of Latino voters. We're starting to get the trickle of inside campaign stories and it appears that Biden's people barely mentioned Hurricane Maria when doing Spanish-speaking phone banking for central Florida - where Puerto Ricans were forced to migrate because Trump fucked them.

The organized left is small (because it didn't really exist for decades) but left policies are popular - Fox News accidentally ran exit polls yesterday with supermajorities for nationalized healthcare and jacking up minimum wages and so on.

Totally (I was just talking about Florida in particular but didn't word it well). A lot of people (like, a lot of people) are socially conservative and economically liberal, so that doesn't seem too disingenuous. I don't know many free market wonks who dislike weekends and the 40 hour work week, either.

jirodreamsofdank wrote:The organizational skills of the left is small and hurts them more than they will ever understand

fixed.....

The DSA went 26 for 30 this election. That's a good try at a sick burn but the American left was starting at zero circa Occupy and is getting people elected to office and changing the views of Democratic voters, without the patronage of any billionaires. The organizational skills aren't lacking, it took the weight of the American state and global capital to crush American labor and leftist politics - and it still took decades.

realDonaldTrump wrote:STOP THE COUNT!

Yeah, he's really a menace, bro!

Pepe wrote:

realDonaldTrump wrote:STOP THE COUNT!

Yeah, he's really a menace, bro!

Dat cloak lining... I didn't know the Count was such a hypebeast

Chankgeez wrote:Yeah, and on a slightly lower level, how people think Lindsey Graham is even doing an OK job, I'll never know.

Honestly? I was surprised that Harrison got more votes in SC than Bradshaw in TN. Like Graham can at least pretend to be competent by latching on to whatever teat he can find to stay under the radar, but Hagerty is an out and out jackass.

Democrats mostly won the culture war - LGBTQ rights, etc. - without that, it's harder to convince voters because they don't have a program to improve the material circumstances of anyone outside a small urban educated population.

Black and Latino Americans are generally more culturally conservative than college educated white people but they've heretofore been content to let white libs roll with their project there because there were economic benefits to Democrats. Post-Obama, that hasn't been true - at the end of his term, Black household wealth was wiped out. Makes it harder to get people to ignore their Catholic opposition to abortion when everything else in their life is shit.

TraceItalian wrote:Honestly?

Not even sure anymore.



(Oh, yeah, I forgot, was gonna stop posting while I still had "666" in my post count. )

"... if your sheep."