ilovefuzz.com

I just think god has no place in rock n' roll.

But yep, Christianity is only a starting point for JHS... certainly not all evangelical companies are going to be unoriginal snake oil salesmen who support bad things.

Iommic Pope wrote: Sorry skully for dragging you into this.

You can just blame me.

Blackened Soul wrote:I don't hate it because I know or care what it is I hate it because it has red knobs, everyone knows that all pedals that have red knobs suck, even if you change the knobs after the fact.

wut?


best knobs in the history of knobs

Oh here we go with the red stuff now....

The blood of Christ, the knob of heaven.

rfurtkamp wrote:The joke is I'm not even a Christian and don't want to own a single JHS product - but I do see the ability of folks to express those faith-based beliefs restricted more and more with every passing year. The baker who wouldn't make a cake for a gay wedding is villified, but artists who won't perform in North Carolina because of the bathroom law...were lauded. Obama's illegal overreaches, lauded. Trump's overarching "evils", blasted before they even had the opportunity to emerge, ad nauseum.

Do you really not see the fundamental differences between each of the things you're analogizing? The baker is a bigot; the artists are boycotting bigotry. How is that even a comparison? Do you really want to live in a country where religious expression is more important than the right not to be persecuted? If the baker had refused to bake a cake for an interracial couple on the basis of religious conviction, we wouldn't even be having a discussion. He has the right to believe what he wants, but his rights end when they begin infringing on the rights of others. What if he refused to bake a cake for a muslim wedding? Religious freedom isn't even possible in a society that tolerates bigotry, because majority religions will use sanctioned intolerance to snuff out their competition.

Obama "over-reached" because he was stuck with a congress that didn't seem to care what his agenda was; they just didn't want him to succeed at anything. The only pronounced difference between Obama and other recent democratic presidents is the colour of his skin, so it's hard to see the way many republican congressmen behaved toward him as anything other than racist, especially considering how many things he did that would have been celebrated by conservatives if they'd been paying attention to his actual actions. He began issuing controversial executive orders after it became clear he had no other options. Conversely, Trump entered office explicitly saying he had a huge list of executive orders he planned to enact in his first hundred days, and proceeded to begin issuing them day one. He has yet to pursue any sort of legislation in any capacity beyond publicly rushing congress and then berating them for not passing bills they haven't had time to think through. He's also a sexual predator who explicitly ran on a platform of bigotry and pretty transparently has no political convictions, so, again, I'm not sure how this is a comparison.

rfurtkamp wrote:Much of the JHS bashing seems to just be "bash the Praise and Worship guys", which I don't care much about myself (and have a history of denying them sanctuary in anywhere I have control over).

I'd be curious to see examples of people bashing JHS for their religious beliefs if you can provide a link. I haven't ever seen it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I've only ever known people to bash JHS for being 99 kinds of shady in their business practices, and for supporting a hate group (that irrelevantly happens to have a religious affiliation), so from my perspective this assertion feels like projection.

John Matrix wrote:

Blackened Soul wrote:I don't hate it because I know or care what it is I hate it because it has red knobs, everyone knows that all pedals that have red knobs suck, even if you change the knobs after the fact.

wut?


best knobs in the history of knobs

ew.

bennroe wrote:
Do you really not see the fundamental differences between each of the things you're analogizing? The baker is a bigot; the artists are boycotting bigotry. How is that even a comparison? Do you really want to live in a country where religious expression is more important than the right not to be persecuted?

I support the baker's right to not serve someone. I draw a distinction between public and private - the government *should* be required to provide all things to eligible comers. Private sector, I believe in the market's ability to choose and punish those who they don't like the choices made, as has been done with the JHS thing here.

If the baker had refused to bake a cake for an interracial couple on the basis of religious conviction, we wouldn't even be having a discussion.

I'd support the baker then as well, even if I disagreed fundamentally with the choice. There are other sources for cake.

He has the right to believe what he wants, but his rights end when they begin infringing on the rights of others.

Then he has no rights.

What if he refused to bake a cake for a muslim wedding?

Fine with that, just as I'm fine with the many Muslim bakers who refused to serve a gay wedding (many videos on YT).

I support the Nazis marching in Skokie, etc. as well. It doesn't mean I endorse their action, but I defend their right to make that choice and exercise theirright.

Religious freedom isn't even possible in a society that tolerates bigotry, because majority religions will use sanctioned intolerance to snuff out their competition.

Majority rule often snuffs out the minority, even when their rights are ostensibly protected.

Obama "over-reached" because he was stuck with a congress that didn't seem to care what his agenda was; they just didn't want him to succeed at anything. The only pronounced difference between Obama and other recent democratic presidents is the colour of his skin, so it's hard to see the way many republican congressmen behaved toward him as anything other than racist, especially considering how many things he did that would have been celebrated by conservatives if they'd been paying attention to his actual actions.

Beyond the talking points, I and many other conservatives opposed the actions because they simply were not constitutional. Doesn't mean that a good idea necessarily is, but that's also why the Constitution can be changed.

I could care less if Obama was black, white, or a Martian. When I disagreed on policy grounds, it wasn't because of race. I don't support executive overreach - I didn't under Bush I, or Clinton, or Bush II, or Trump..etc.

He began issuing controversial executive orders after it became clear he had no other options.

Negotiations and acting within the law to accomplish the goal, compromise, etc. were always on the table. Remember immigration reform came within inches of passing - he just didn't try again, nor sweeten the pot, or...

He just went for illegal.

Conversely, Trump entered office explicitly saying he had a huge list of executive orders he planned to enact in his first hundred days, and proceeded to begin issuing them day one.

And for the vast majority, I agree with them either on the grounds of simply reversing something that was done as an executive action (his right, as many executives have done before!) or because it ended an unconstitutional program. Others, within the realm of the executive traditionally and we'll see what the Court eventually rules.

He has yet to pursue any sort of legislation in any capacity beyond publicly rushing congress and then berating them for not passing bills they haven't had time to think through.

It's been a shitshow, that much I don't think anyone will disagree with.

He's also a sexual predator who explicitly ran on a platform of bigotry and pretty transparently has no political convictions, so, again, I'm not sure how this is a comparison.

Those are talking points that some of us, even those who didn't vote for him, disagree with. The "racist" claims are hokum, and political convictions, we shall see. I've been relatively happy with most of the things thusfar save Sessions and the seizure/drug war silliness.

I'd be curious to see examples of people bashing JHS for their religious beliefs if you can provide a link. I haven't ever seen it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I've only ever known people to bash JHS for being 99 kinds of shady in their business practices, and for supporting a hate group (that irrelevantly happens to have a religious affiliation), so from my perspective this assertion feels like projection.

I've seen far more tied into the allegedly bigoted church and then a Christian pile on, I wasn't aware of much of the other controversy. The cloning incidents, distasteful, but well, in a few cases I can sit back with hindsight (as much as I supported Devi at one point, the batshit insane and the direct treatment of both customers and employees was too much) and laugh.

But again, I refer back to the thread title.

more and more ILF is turning into southpark, not a little, not a shadow of, not ironically, I mean like you can pull up actual episodes and cross reference... next you guys are going to try and force rfurtkamp to go to

Not likely. I stick to gear forums and avoid the stupid wherever possible.

Hell, I didn't post this thread because between the hatred of anything corporate and the hate of JHS, I knew it'd be a shitshow.

But sometimes trainwreck can be amusing.

That and there are more conservative folks here than a lot of folks would think - they're just smarter than me and keep their mouths shut.

rfurtkamp wrote:Not likely. I stick to gear forums and avoid the stupid wherever possible.

Hell, I didn't post this thread because between the hatred of anything corporate and the hate of JHS, I knew it'd be a shitshow.

But sometimes trainwreck can be amusing.

That and there are more conservative folks here than a lot of folks would think - they're just smarter than me and keep their mouths shut.

No my point is the shitshow is everywhere now and everyone should be able to have an opinion without a


And look yeah most of us hate trump and shit but, spilled milk and shit and what are you actually going to do and shit other than complaining on the internets and shit?

Yea, or just avoid the scuffle.

I try to the vast majority of the time.

But I've come to accept that if I'm forced to make a choice between the binaries that I'm presented with, it won't be a good one anyone is happy with.

I miss the days when we'd just go yell obscenities at the Actual Nazis in Skokie marching.

We didn't fight them, or punch them, or impede their way.

We just laughed at them and they'd crawl back to their holes, smaller the next year en masse than the year before.

Blackened Soul wrote:I don't hate it because I know or care what it is I hate it because it has red knobs, everyone knows that all pedals that have red knobs suck, even if you change the knobs after the fact.

mfw

rfurtkamp wrote:Then he has no rights.

If you believe that, I'm not sure there's a productive conversation to be had. You won't catch me advocating 1st amendment erosions, but the only reasonable solution when two rights come into conflict is to protect whichever right is being trampled on by the other. Otherwise, nobody truly has any rights. To that end, there are other places to buy cakes only because great strides have been made in combatting bigotry, in no small part with the help of laws that protect against discrimination. The lack of such laws can lead, and has led, to situations where there are no sources of cake for certain groups of people (and obviously much worse). Those laws are pretty crucial to upholding the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which is of equal importance to the right to freedom of religion, regardless of where it appears in the Bill of Rights. That baker has religious freedom because congress can never pass a law that bans the wearing of crosses, the building of churches, or the training of priests, but he doesn't have the right to put his wife to death for cheating on him, regardless of what the bible says. You say you prefer social or economic pressure as a vehicle for combatting this sort of hate, but your disdain for that approach is what sparked this debate in the first place, when you called speaking out against JHS irrational.

I would imagine it's to the surprise of nobody that there are also muslim bakers out there discriminating against the queer community. Christians certainly don't have a monopoly on bigotry.