Page 6 of 11
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:36 pm
by MEC
No one has to prove to anyone why they feel, how they feel, about anything.
No one is telling anyone what to do.
Believe what you want.
Feel how you want.
Take what you want.
Give what you want.
Buy what you want.
Care about what you want.
Live how you want.
Die how you want.
Cry and complain about being unemployed if you want.
Be lazy and don't work if you want.
Get a job at an Asian factory if you want.
It's your life, it's up to you what is worth your time and consideration.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:44 pm
by dubkitty
"These are not available for the public viewing but they exist." just like the alien bodies at Area 51. showing a picture of a document in a video is not equal to a court filing that is available for public access. one is evidence; the other is fakeable by any four-year-old with a $40 videocam. you know this.
as to what the protestors, or more to the point their union, have to gain, that's pretty clear: they want to force Cort to re-open economically unviable plants at which they had a decade-long adversarial relationship with said unions, at wage rates and with working conditions dictated by those unions. good luck with that.
"Even if documents were available for everyone, I sincerely doubt that this would effect your position or opinion on the matter."
why don't you, or one of the people arguing in favor of the Cort workers' union's position, test me on that by producing some links of the type i've requested twice now? from dependable sources not affiliated with the Cort workers' union or the boycott movement, documenting actual abuses at the plants or confirming that a Korean court found against Cort regarding the plant closings? given that in over 24 hours nobody has been able to produce a single link other than to movement propaganda, if you don't come up with something pretty soon any rational observer is going to conclude that real evidence doesn't exist. and evidence isn't subject to ideology, however fervently you wish it might be.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:46 pm
by tashiattack
dubkitty wrote:"These are not available for the public viewing but they exist." just like the alien bodies at Area 51. showing a picture of a document in a video is not equal to a court filing that is available for public access. one is evidence; the other is fakeable by any four-year-old with a $40 videocam. you know this.
as to what the protestors, or more to the point their union, have to gain, that's pretty clear: they want to force Cort to re-open economically unviable plants at which they had a decade-long adversarial relationship with said unions, at wage rates and with working conditions dictated by those unions. good luck with that.
"Even if documents were available for everyone, I sincerely doubt that this would effect your position or opinion on the matter."
why don't you, or one of the people arguing in favor of the Cort workers' union's position, test me on that by producing some links of the type i've requested twice now? from dependable sources not affiliated with the Cort workers' union or the boycott movement, documenting actual abuses at the plants or confirming that a Korean court found against Cort regarding the plant closings? given that in over 24 hours nobody has been able to produce a single link other than to movement propaganda, if you don't come up with something pretty soon any rational observer is going to conclude that real evidence doesn't exist. and evidence isn't subject to ideology, however fervently you wish it might be.
Wow dude. Want me to contact the Korean Legal system and get them for you? How about the workers doctors. Maybe I'l send them an email!
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:47 pm
by MEC
MiddleEarthCrisis wrote:No one has to prove to anyone why they feel, how they feel, about anything.
No one is telling anyone what to do.
Believe what you want.
Feel how you want.
Take what you want.
Give what you want.
Buy what you want.
Care about what you want.
Live how you want.
Die how you want.
Cry and complain about being unemployed if you want.
Be lazy and don't work if you want.
Get a job at an Asian factory if you want.
It's your life, it's up to you what is worth your time and consideration.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:48 pm
by dubkitty
OK, let's do this a THIRD time:
until you've got some actual substantiation for the claims being made from a reasonably impartial source--i'd settle for an internationally recognized news service, or even a major newspaper from SK with an English-language website--you've got nothing. i don't have to supply alternative explanations for lame anecdotal propaganda; i'm not the person asking people to boycott products. you're the person who has the responsibility to produce actual, reliable, checkable evidence of your claims--not just sad unconfirmed stories about what supposedly happened to so-and-so at the factory--or you're just spouting random jive.
can none of you guys read the English language?
put up or shut up.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:51 pm
by ohsojayadeva
Dubkitty, why don't you produce some documets that prove the workers are lying about the plants being viable with no reason to close other than to avoid a human rights issue. Its telling that you are ready and willing to take Cort at their word but call what the workers are doing propaganda.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:52 pm
by dubkitty
i don't have to supply alternative explanations for lame anecdotal propaganda; i'm not the person asking people to boycott products. you're the person who has the responsibility to produce actual, reliable, checkable evidence of your claims--not just sad unconfirmed stories about what supposedly happened to so-and-so at the factory--or you're just spouting random jive.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:52 pm
by tashiattack
dubkitty wrote:OK, let's do this a THIRD time:
until you've got some actual substantiation for the claims being made from a reasonably impartial source--i'd settle for an internationally recognized news service, or even a major newspaper from SK with an English-language website--you've got nothing. i don't have to supply alternative explanations for lame anecdotal propaganda; i'm not the person asking people to boycott products. you're the person who has the responsibility to produce actual, reliable, checkable evidence of your claims--not just sad unconfirmed stories about what supposedly happened to so-and-so at the factory--or you're just spouting random jive.
can none of you guys read the English language?
put up or shut up.
"The National Labor Relations Commission ruled that Cor-tek’s disciplinary dismissal of the union officers was illegal, and that the mass redundancy dismissal of all the Cort workers also did not fulfill legal prerequisites and found those dismissals unfair and illegal as well (Oct. 2007, Mar. 2008). The High Courts also found that both Cort and Cor-tek mass dismissals were illegal, finding that Cort’s claim of financial hardship false since the company had posted profits amounting to 78 billion for a decade straight until 2006, and since managerial and office staff salaries even increased after the mass firing (Aug. 2009, Nov. 2009). Cor-tek was also found to have violated the Equal Opportunity Act with its discriminatory treatment of its women workers (July 2008), while Cort’s dismissal of five workers who were industrial injury victims while on the job was ruled by the courts in favor of the workers as well (February 2008)."
So basically, if its not on bbc, cnn, or AP, then it's not real news eh?
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:54 pm
by dubkitty
link, please. i'm betting that's a quote from the press release.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:57 pm
by dubkitty
yeah, that's the same press release from the boycott organization ohsojayadeva quoted back on page 2. you aren't even clever, you know that?
"i'd settle for an internationally recognized news service, or even a major newspaper from SK with an English-language website."
you've got nothing.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:58 pm
by ohsojayadeva
Dubkitty: its equally telling that you keep demanding links and providing none. If you really do think there is nothing substantial going on, please feel free to unsubscribe to this thread. I have already linked to an english language news source. Now you're saying its not good enough because its connected to the movement. Prove me wrong. Show your own links.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:59 pm
by dubkitty
it's up to you to prove your case.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:00 pm
by tashiattack
So basically, what you are saying is that Cort workers have lied about a labour committees process, basically a quasi-legal procedure, to the entire media? Are you seriously suggesting this? Wow. I stand by my earlier position. You have already made your mind, and whether there is physical documentation available for the public or not, it won't change a damn thing for you.
I have a Korean source and I'll see if I can get her to find me the actual committee papers, although I'm not sure what their laws regarding access to information is (aka: the reason why its not public). Could also be financial, as it costs around 1500-3000$ + a wait of up to a year for Canadians (I've had to do it twice). You might need a translator though
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:07 pm
by ohsojayadeva
If you're not willing to hold yourself to the same standard you intend to impose on others, this conversation is over.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:08 pm
by dubkitty
oh, so it's a "Committee"...it's not a judicial process. a "quasi-legal procedure." mmm-hmm.