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Don't be sorry, it's not really off topic.

(I agreed with your post, morange.)

UglyCasanova wrote:If I lived in the US, Bernie would be the only presidental candidate I'd even consider voting for. Left-wing/socialist/liberal American politics is so funny to listen to when you're living in an old socialist country. If Bernie was running in Norway, he'd be on the right side of the political spectrum. He's not extreme AT ALL. And people are losing their shit in the US, so scared of socialism. You'd be FINE. He's not Stalin, but Trump might be Hitler. Just my 2 Norwegian crowns.

With the refugees coming in - crisis to some - how to do you think that left-wing political stance is working in Norway, and other parts of Europe?

Not to through the baby out with the bathwater. Many of the things I believe in - in terms of social issues/environmental - are grounded in the so called "Left," but I think liberal politics have failed by caving to political correctness. I think PC is a form of thought/speech control.

Bernie often references places like Sweden and other European countries with good social welfare/safety net programs, but as others have noted: those countries are a lot smaller than the USA.

Wrote way too much on the first point on the migrant thing, but I decided to delete because it swayed a lot from the topic and was just… long.

The thing about PC though is that this kinda thing is not new. This debate is always on the table whenever there is more polarization in society between the political camps. Research has shown that words we typically use and see certainly affect the way we think, so in a sense, yes it is thought control. But what is the alternative? Thought control works both ways in that case. The left accuse the moderate right/center for normalization of the far right with a similar argument. And if any of this is true, I'd prefer society that at least strives to be tolerant to people regardless of outside attributes. Being "politically correct" has become such a smear word and in some groups they just see any act that is in some way for equality part of some PC-conspiracy. Maybe what is politically correct is different in our respective places though, but that's the way I kinda see it

Well, tax financed welfare actually benefits from a large population, especially in countries that is well off economically, so I don't think that should be a problem

In regards to the current immigration and 'caving to political correctness', I think you need to read up on the situation in Norway at the moment. The UN is not pleased with us. We are definitely not letting anyone in who's not in dire need of help/fear for their life/people who are not just looking to upgrade their life. It has become vert hard to enter Norway (if you're not an actual refugee of war). If you're a refugee of war then of course you should be allowed to enter and be kept safe. No brainer.

So my super long deleted post about Norway and Sweden was correct then

We definitely aren't what we were. I fear that Sweden next election might go the Norwegian road with biggest right wing party in coalition with our populist/racist party. Even though I think the Sweden democrats are worse than fremskrittspartiet.

It is so weird I love the thing that keeps me frustrated all the fucking time.

Brandsmannen wrote: Even though I think the Sweden democrats are worse than fremskrittspartiet.

Oh yeah, undoubtedly so! Sweden has embraced capitalism to a much bigger extent than Norway, hence your red parties being more extreme in their views and ways. That's how I see it, at least. You seem more politically involved than me though, so I might be way out of my league here.

UglyCasanova wrote:

Brandsmannen wrote: Even though I think the Sweden democrats are worse than fremskrittspartiet.

Oh yeah, undoubtedly so! Sweden has embraced capitalism to a much bigger extent than Norway, hence your red parties being more extreme in their views and ways. That's how I see it, at least. You seem more politically involved than me though, so I might be way out of my league here.

That's true! And like any swede I'll also say that you guys have the oil, and that is funding a lot of welfare programs too.

We should've never let you go

Maybe it's been enough scandi politics now though haha

Actually, I'm really interested in Scando politics because I wish my country would adopt some of your policies.

Was pointed to this tweet from last night:
"It'll be amazing if this election comes down to old white guy from Queens vs old white guy from Brooklyn, both advocating 1930s-era policies"
I'm lucky I didn't have a mouthful of coffee when I read that.

Iommic Pope wrote:Actually, I'm really interested in Scando politics because I wish my country would adopt some of your policies.

Oh really? Well before our next election I'll start the thread "Does it really matter who the next SHOG is?" (SHOG is now my favorite word for swedish head of government)

Hey, at least you don't have that Tony Abbott dude anymore I try to keep up with politics in most in like Australia and Canada too but sometimes it becomes a bit much. I need to endlessly scour the internet for cool guitar gear too, and one can only do so much

Brandsmannen wrote:Wrote way too much on the first point on the migrant thing, but I decided to delete because it swayed a lot from the topic and was just… long.

The thing about PC though is that this kinda thing is not new. This debate is always on the table whenever there is more polarization in society between the political camps. Research has shown that words we typically use and see certainly affect the way we think, so in a sense, yes it is thought control. But what is the alternative? Thought control works both ways in that case. The left accuse the moderate right/center for normalization of the far right with a similar argument. And if any of this is true, I'd prefer society that at least strives to be tolerant to people regardless of outside attributes. Being "politically correct" has become such a smear word and in some groups they just see any act that is in some way for equality part of some PC-conspiracy. Maybe what is politically correct is different in our respective places though, but that's the way I kinda see it

Well, tax financed welfare actually benefits from a large population, especially in countries that is well off economically, so I don't think that should be a problem

The alternative is the allowance of free-speech and thought and approach situations through actual discussion and not rhetoric, sophistry and ad hominem attacks. We are all human and that transcends political parties and thus all people in all political parties and subject to committing these errors in reasoning. My issue is that the "left" is currently doing this a lot with regards to Islam in particular as well as other areas and they are blind to it because they think they are 'on the right side' and are self-righteous.

The creation of norms is a tricky thing. I'd like it to be the norm that any child anywhere in the world - if he or she comes at as gay to there parents/friends. etc. - is treated not with hate or violence but with love and acceptance. I'm straight but care deeply about human rights. Someone may disagree with me on that being a norm but I'd happy discuss with them why I think that should be the case and I wouldn't want to force that as a norm onto people. I'd want their to use their reason to see how love and acceptance/understanding, or their gay child is the most appropriate choice.

The left is trying to force things by using threats of being a racist or bigot if one does not accept their view of things

Brandsmannen wrote:So my super long deleted post about Norway and Sweden was correct then

We definitely aren't what we were. I fear that Sweden next election might go the Norwegian road with biggest right wing party in coalition with our populist/racist party. Even though I think the Sweden democrats are worse than fremskrittspartiet.

It is so weird I love the thing that keeps me frustrated all the fucking time.

It seems (unfortunately) that the more right-leaning parties are the only ones addressing the refugee issue because the left is too afraid to voice any criticisms because of political correctness.

It seems European countries' social welfare programs work because you have a small population - or small by USA's size - in which people pay into. If more refugees keep coming it, that is going to heavily deplete that social system.

I like how former gov/veteran Gilmore is still in the race.

It's fun watching democracy not working... wish it was from a distance though...

Sanders keeps making the point, and its an important one, that people need to organize and do things if they want change. The great trap of our current system is that people don't have to participate if they don't want to. Even voting. People can just be concerned with themselves and or family; working, buying what they want. That big gear market that keeps everyone perpetually wanting gear.