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D.o.S. wrote: to clarify: Beyonce's cultural capital is entirely musical. Crass (the band) was one facet of Crass (the flag). Certainly the most enduring/well-known facet, but it was born out of a group of people with a very specific idea about things, not a Dad-ager with visions of musical domination.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, though. Biafria's a better person to pick for your point, definitely.

I think we're mostly agreeing. I didn't know all that about Crass. I'm not really defending Beyonce either. I'm just enjoying this discussion.

D.o.S. wrote:I think we're all in agreement with you that this is probably a good thing to be spreading, we're just arguing about the minutia of where that credit should go and how much it should get?

re: hate speech, that's almost not worth talking about since those people have entirely/purposefully missed the point.

So, popular, slightly radical political views (might be seen as more radical in the US, though?) being appropriated by multimillionaire singer is the issue? Well, yeah, that's interesting. ACAB going mainstream. Still, I'm more interested in the result (if any) of this than how it came about. Maybe Beyoncé will speak up soon.

infamousalien wrote:

D.o.S. wrote: to clarify: Beyonce's cultural capital is entirely musical. Crass (the band) was one facet of Crass (the flag). Certainly the most enduring/well-known facet, but it was born out of a group of people with a very specific idea about things, not a Dad-ager with visions of musical domination.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, though. Biafria's a better person to pick for your point, definitely.

I think we're mostly agreeing. I didn't know all that about Crass. I'm not really defending Beyonce either. I'm just enjoying this discussion.

Likewise! This is a nice discussion about some real shit, instead of just lobbing insults about the merits of emo while we dance about architecture (not that this isn't fun as well, ofc.)




If anyone is interested, I can file a FOIA on the halftime show complaints?

You could set this up a few ways. And we have.

art/commerce
subversion/pandering
race/silence
capital/cultural capital
violence/resistance
pop/propaganda
destruction/sabotage

Not to reduce the thinking here to binaries, but it helps to organize things. The world is endlessly interesting.

D.o.S. wrote:

This will kill the thread.

Get mean, y'all.





Ok, not really.

I think the thing to note about 'subversion cred' (cool term) is to be careful ascribing motives for those of us questioning. For some of us, and let's be honest for me in my punk ghetto even half of what most people talk about here is small business rock*, it's not about wanting things to be outside the machine because of some pretension like it's 'worth more' or whatever. It's just a personal decision that you don't wanna be a part of that because it doesn't appeal. I've had a genuine distaste for the music industry for a long time and it's gotten almost militant in the last five or so years as I've seen it get even more insidious in the way it co-opts vital art and resistance**.

That's why I find this difficult to negotiate: I'm cynical of every fucking rockstar that tries to be 'political'. Hell Coldplay played as well and they're just as bad with mealy mouth statements about wanting to end sadness and rainclouds in the world. At least Bey gave some money to BLM and I'm quietly enjoying the fact that she pissed off some pigs. Anything that even remotely pokes at the pedestal authority figures get put on will always be alright by me. But I'm suspicious of her because I see people from my own cultural backwater ascribing motives and values to her music that I feel are a function of their own privleged position, particularly with regard to their buying power. Spend $180 on your outfit before going to the show of the band fronted by a known woman abuser, be a 'feminist'. I'm also a celebrity gossip addict so I know she and Jay Z treat their staff like indentured servants.

So I need to sit back and acknowledge my own view, and accept that for other people, especially the disenfranchised, this is a super powerful and hopeful thing. And believe me when I say that's a genuine respect thing. Not an ivory tower view point of 'well I guess that matters to the poors and minorities who don't have access to the storied back catalog of 90s hardcore classics like I do, feh' *polishes monocle*.

D.o.S. wrote:I think we're all in agreement with you that this is probably a good thing to be spreading, we're just arguing about the minutia of where that credit should go and how much it should get?

This.


* small business rock = wannabe corporate rock that hasn't gotten to the big leagues yet.
** and exposure to casecandy's posting.

Sheeeeit

What a well articulated response, sir. I applaud both your verbiage as well as your intuitive insights into the human condition.

instead of just lobbing insults about the merits of emo while we dance about architecture

"Don't mock what I am, Mr. Feeny." — Eric Matthews

daseb wrote:I think the thing to note about 'subversion cred' (cool term) is to be careful ascribing motives for those of us questioning. For some of us, and let's be honest for me in my punk ghetto even half of what most people talk about here is small business rock*, it's not about wanting things to be outside the machine because of some pretension like it's 'worth more' or whatever. It's just a personal decision that you don't wanna be a part of that because it doesn't appeal. I've had a genuine distaste for the music industry for a long time and it's gotten almost militant in the last five or so years as I've seen it get even more insidious in the way it co-opts vital art and resistance**.

That's why I find this difficult to negotiate: I'm cynical of every fucking rockstar that tries to be 'political'. Hell Coldplay played as well and they're just as bad with mealy mouth statements about wanting to end sadness and rainclouds in the world. At least Bey gave some money to BLM and I'm quietly enjoying the fact that she pissed off some pigs. Anything that even remotely pokes at the pedestal authority figures get put on will always be alright by me. But I'm suspicious of her because I see people from my own cultural backwater ascribing motives and values to her music that I feel are a function of their own privleged position, particularly with regard to their buying power. Spend $180 on your outfit before going to the show of the band fronted by a known woman abuser, be a 'feminist'. I'm also a celebrity gossip addict so I know she and Jay Z treat their staff like indentured servants.

So I need to sit back and acknowledge my own view, and accept that for other people, especially the disenfranchised, this is a super powerful and hopeful thing. And believe me when I say that's a genuine respect thing. Not an ivory tower view point of 'well I guess that matters to the poors and minorities who don't have access to the storied back catalog of 90s hardcore classics like I do, feh' *polishes monocle*.

D.o.S. wrote:I think we're all in agreement with you that this is probably a good thing to be spreading, we're just arguing about the minutia of where that credit should go and how much it should get?

This.


* small business rock = wannabe corporate rock that hasn't gotten to the big leagues yet.
** and exposure to casecandy's posting.

This reminds me of the Audre Lorde quote ("the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house"). Small corporate rock is still corporate rock. We've just gotten really good at packaging and marketing subversion to young people--and angry older people--so it's really confusing to figure out how best to strike back, or whatever.

We just need some new things to work on, I think. Love guitars and everything, but the whole mid-century image of a person ripping out tunes on a sweet axe while sticking it to the man just doesn't exist anymore. Hip-hop took over for a while, but that's also been assimilated into Pepsi ads. Basically, we need more danger. Maybe we need more GG Allin. But this transitional moment (era, decade, whatever) isn't offering a lot up to most people. You have to dig to find the good stuff. Most of the people here seem willing to do that, but, as you say, dase, that signifies a kind of privilege, too.

Round and round and round.

I love her and the song. I think that to say that she isn't going to get any blowback from this is naive for sure. She is getting a ton of flack for this song. Anti-Beyonce protests, NFL protests for letting her perform. Fox news saying she is racist. She isn't going to lose money, but that was never what this was about.

People call her daughter a monkey for having natural hair. Just because she is famous, doesn't mean she isn't subjected to racism.

Also, fwiw, she and Jay Z have donated tens of thousands of dollars to bail funds for BLM protesters who were arrested. They have also donated 1.5 million to BLM charities (coming from their Tidal Foundation). It isn't like she/they have been sitting on the sidelines for years.

Sharing her support of black women isn't a small thing. She is spreading support and joy and that shit is important.

Alternatively, she spent one and a half times what she earned helping the progeny of one of the world's most brutal dictators party down on a tax write-off that may or may not actually be doing anything to help the BLM cause -- charities are not immune from ineffectiveness and inaction, after all, and we already have one documented instance of Bey + company not doing her due diligence on that sort of thing.

And because this point is ripe to be taken the wrong way:

D.o.S. wrote:I think we're all in agreement with you that this is probably a good thing to be spreading, we're just arguing about the minutia of where that credit should go and how much it should get?

aens_wife wrote:I love her and the song. I think that to say that she isn't going to get any blowback from this is naive for sure. She is getting a ton of flack for this song. Anti-Beyonce protests, NFL protests for letting her perform. Fox news saying she is racist. She isn't going to lose money, but that was never what this was about.

People call her daughter a monkey for having natural hair. Just because she is famous, doesn't mean she isn't subjected to racism.

Also, fwiw, she and Jay Z have donated tens of thousands of dollars to bail funds for BLM protesters who were arrested. They have also donated 1.5 million to BLM charities (coming from their Tidal Foundation). It isn't like she/they have been sitting on the sidelines for years.

Sharing her support of black women isn't a small thing. She is spreading support and joy and that shit is important.

I agree with everything said here.

Can confirm the racism against Beyoncé amongst white conservatives. I'm a member of a few pro-Israel groups on FB and there's some unfortunate demographic spillover and I spend a hell of a lot of time arguing with Republicans. The things they say about Beyoncé, Jay-Z, Whoopi Goldberg, and other black celebrities are vile in a way that really takes you aback sometimes. There is a large demo of the American public that has resisted all social change since the year 1900. And they do not like "strong black women."

casecandy wrote:

aens_wife wrote:I love her and the song. I think that to say that she isn't going to get any blowback from this is naive for sure. She is getting a ton of flack for this song. Anti-Beyonce protests, NFL protests for letting her perform. Fox news saying she is racist. She isn't going to lose money, but that was never what this was about.

People call her daughter a monkey for having natural hair. Just because she is famous, doesn't mean she isn't subjected to racism.

Also, fwiw, she and Jay Z have donated tens of thousands of dollars to bail funds for BLM protesters who were arrested. They have also donated 1.5 million to BLM charities (coming from their Tidal Foundation). It isn't like she/they have been sitting on the sidelines for years.

Sharing her support of black women isn't a small thing. She is spreading support and joy and that shit is important.

I agree with everything said here.

Can confirm the racism against Beyoncé amongst white conservatives. I'm a member of a few pro-Israel groups on FB and there's some unfortunate demographic spillover and I spend a hell of a lot of time arguing with Republicans. The things they say about Beyoncé, Jay-Z, Whoopi Goldberg, and other black celebrities are vile in a way that really takes you aback sometimes. There is a large demo of the American public that has resisted all social change since the year 1900. And they do not like "strong women."

fixed that for you....

As I had said in a previous post I felt like I didn't have a horse in the race but after some thought/discussion I simply decided that, whether Beyonce or a team of writers/other artists deserve the credit it was irrelevant. The song is empowering for People of Color and has importance to Black culture and that's just really important at this time.

That said, I really like this discussion and the elements we're bringing into it. A lot of intent vs. impact and whether the intent matters?

[quote="casecandy" I'm a member of a few pro-Israel groups on FB and there's some unfortunate demographic spillover and I spend a hell of a lot of time arguing with Republicans.[/quote]

Where's the best of thread?