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dase wrote:came in to say these. And I'm hell over this stuff, it turned into 'indie rock without the words'. Could argue for days about how something so interesting became so goddamn traditionalist and WHITE. But anyway.

So where did it change in your opinion? what'S still the good stuff and what's not anymore? i mean... what is the good post-rock for you?

not flaming or whatever, just trying to have an interesting discussion

DarkAxel wrote:

dase wrote:came in to say these. And I'm hell over this stuff, it turned into 'indie rock without the words'. Could argue for days about how something so interesting became so goddamn traditionalist and WHITE. But anyway.

So where did it change in your opinion? what'S still the good stuff and what's not anymore? i mean... what is the good post-rock for you?

not flaming or whatever, just trying to have an interesting discussion

I'm not dase, but I'll jump in anyway. I played briefly in a post rock band that was trying to be Explosions in the Sky so hard that it hurt. I kind of feel like a few bands set a formula that worked for them (EITS, Mogwai) and when other people saw that those guys made it work well, they jumped on board. Now, I don't think the slow and quiet, then loud and fast was a bad formula. The dynamics and crescendo that it creates is rather nice, actually. It's just been overused to death. So you have to look for people who took that basic formula and tweaked it for their own use.

One of my favorite examples is Gifts from Enola. (ILF's own NDominy was the bassist for them) They still have the "post rock formula" at parts, but they incorporate vocals for texturing in a few places, they focus on being heavier without quite jumping into that Pelican and Isis "post-metal" thing. The more I think about it, they actually tend to follow a "post-hardcore" structure, with breakdowns and such. (See 5:30 on the video)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7Gf48_BGI4[/youtube]

Gifts kind of reminds me of Red Sparowes in a way. There was another band that did it right early, especially with "Every Red Heart" and "At the Soundless Dawn." Kind of a bummer that they didn't stick around, but from that, Marriages was spawned. Definitely still what I would call the post rock genre, but with a focus on vocals, and with the killer Greg Burns providing bass grooving.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPVZMZus5CY[/youtube]

Short story long, I think retinal hit the nail on the head with the title. Traditional post rock is pretty well beaten to death, but the fringe stuff that still falls under the umbrella is pretty damn good.

Marriages is great

DarkAxel wrote:

dase wrote:came in to say these. And I'm hell over this stuff, it turned into 'indie rock without the words'. Could argue for days about how something so interesting became so goddamn traditionalist and WHITE. But anyway.

So where did it change in your opinion? what'S still the good stuff and what's not anymore? i mean... what is the good post-rock for you?

not flaming or whatever, just trying to have an interesting discussion

The point where I personally tapped out was explosions in the sky and sigur ros. Like for a while you had all this stuff going on where it seemed like every band was trying to make a point of not sounding like the others, you had everything from tortoise to Mogwai to Cerberus shoal to the Rachel's to all the weird little ensembles on kranky and constellation. EITS came along and I just couldn't connect with it. Then suddenly all the local bands that were playing 'emo' got delay pedals and stopped writing coded poetry about girls they wanted to fuck and instead thought a five minute buildup was the most moving thing ever written. I dunno, I just couldn't handle it. Came across as very homogenised and fake.

good talk and Marriages indeed look great

makes sense... bad thing is that for example our conceptual piece of music has certain post-rock inspired parts and moments and they are amazing in my opinion, but there's still that little devil in my head asking "does it make us like stupid hacks?"

I myself am having a hard time appreciating a lot of modern/contemporary music these days. It all sounds like "oh, another one of those bands ."

THAT being said, I do think that every genre produces great bands, and it's easy to identify which ones are the founders, which are the defining acts, and which are popular more because they're copping the styles of the previous two. I like a lot of Mogwai and Sigur Ros and some others for a few reasons:
-they were/are defining acts for the genre
-they were the first acts I heard in that genre. I think that the first bands you hear in any style that make you like that style will often times be the ones you like the most.
-I feel like I can emotionally connect with them. This isn't the "post metal thread," but I'll compare Isis and Pelican. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Isis, but Pelican puts me to sleep. Isis had riffs and songs that had great dynamics and tension, Pelican just.... meh for some reason. Take Russian Circles. They follow the post-rock formula, kind of. However, I can think of melodies they've written that I like right now. Easily. Pelican, I have no clue.
-The bands that are "good" write memorable and moving riffs, melodies, and lyrics. "Catchy" isn't the word 'd like to use, because it makes me think of a jingle, but "memorable" I'll definitely use.

So in answer to DarkAxel's question: someone is only a hack if they're hacking some one else's riffs, melodies, lyrics, and the like.

While I'm posting here:
Nadja does a good job, in mt opinion, of writing "post-something-whatever" music that somehow doesn't sound like anyone else to me. A lot of Aiden Baker's solo stuff is pretty different, too.
http://nadja.bandcamp.com/album/queller

dase wrote:

DarkAxel wrote:

dase wrote:came in to say these. And I'm hell over this stuff, it turned into 'indie rock without the words'. Could argue for days about how something so interesting became so goddamn traditionalist and WHITE. But anyway.

So where did it change in your opinion? what'S still the good stuff and what's not anymore? i mean... what is the good post-rock for you?

not flaming or whatever, just trying to have an interesting discussion

The point where I personally tapped out was explosions in the sky and sigur ros. Like for a while you had all this stuff going on where it seemed like every band was trying to make a point of not sounding like the others, you had everything from tortoise to Mogwai to Cerberus shoal to the Rachel's to all the weird little ensembles on kranky and constellation. EITS came along and I just couldn't connect with it. Then suddenly all the local bands that were playing 'emo' got delay pedals and stopped writing coded poetry about girls they wanted to fuck and instead thought a five minute buildup was the most moving thing ever written. I dunno, I just couldn't handle it. Came across as very homogenised and fake.

You do have a good point. I mean, I don't mind a bit of Sigur Ros (cannot jive with EITS at all though) but the point in the first place was that rock ensembles were getting together and making unique music that sounded nothing like 'rock' music at the time, and by now it's just been dumbed down to a formula that people follow to ride upon the popularity of the bands that started this thing in the first place. There's stuff out there a LOT more generic than EITS now, but the fad seems to dying out (luckily). The same thing has been happening with math rock lately too, i try and follow blogs to keep up with new music but over time it just becomes harder and harder to sift through the derivative shit. But then some amazing artist pops up doing something completely new, and the cycle continues

gunslinger_burrito wrote:someone is only a hack if they're hacking some one else's riffs, melodies, lyrics, and the like.

AMEN. Do whatever the hell you want. If you're not consciously ripping people off and it happens to sound like 'post-rock', who cares.

First time I heard Svefn-g-englar I got chills. Still do. (Anyone else remember Dots and Loops on KVRX? Friday nights, I think, 99-00 or so.) I'm not breathless about each new album these days, but I'm not over that one.

dase wrote:

DarkAxel wrote:

dase wrote:came in to say these. And I'm hell over this stuff, it turned into 'indie rock without the words'. Could argue for days about how something so interesting became so goddamn traditionalist and WHITE. But anyway.

So where did it change in your opinion? what'S still the good stuff and what's not anymore? i mean... what is the good post-rock for you?

not flaming or whatever, just trying to have an interesting discussion

The point where I personally tapped out was explosions in the sky and sigur ros. Like for a while you had all this stuff going on where it seemed like every band was trying to make a point of not sounding like the others, you had everything from tortoise to Mogwai to Cerberus shoal to the Rachel's to all the weird little ensembles on kranky and constellation. EITS came along and I just couldn't connect with it. Then suddenly all the local bands that were playing 'emo' got delay pedals and stopped writing coded poetry about girls they wanted to fuck and instead thought a five minute buildup was the most moving thing ever written. I dunno, I just couldn't handle it. Came across as very homogenised and fake.

Dase pretty spot on... Hard to find authenticity or soul in much of it.

backwardsvoyager wrote: . . .the point in the first place was that rock ensembles were getting together and making unique music that sounded nothing like 'rock' music at the time, and by now it's just been dumbed down to a formula that people follow to ride upon the popularity of the bands that started this thing in the first place. There's stuff out there a LOT more generic than EITS now, but the fad seems to dying out (luckily). The same thing has been happening with math rock lately too, i try and follow blogs to keep up with new music but over time it just becomes harder and harder to sift through the derivative shit. But then some amazing artist pops up doing something completely new, and the cycle continues

gunslinger_burrito wrote:someone is only a hack if they're hacking some one else's riffs, melodies, lyrics, and the like.

AMEN. Do whatever the hell you want. If you're not consciously ripping people off and it happens to sound like 'post-rock', who cares.

The bummer of it is that if those "hack" bands are writing and playing music that really emotionally moves them, no matter how cut-and-paste it is, the rest of us think "what a bunch of hacks." I guess in the end, though, they never took/take the time to stand back and look at their music from a more "outside" point of view, if that makes any sense. I think the key phrase you had was " making unique music that sounded nothing like 'rock' music at the time." Whenever a new thing takes off, if it isn't a retro-kick (which is another story altogether) it's because someone is using something in a way that hasn't been explored yet. Does anyone remember the brief little "cello-rock" thing that happened a number of years ago? Ditto.

Anyways, I don't want to be the one to further derail the OP's thread.

dase wrote: Could argue for days about how something so interesting became so goddamn traditionalist and WHITE. But anyway.

Because post rock was such a hotbed of non-white band membership back in the day.

dase wrote:The point where I personally tapped out was explosions in the sky and sigur ros. Like for a while you had all this stuff going on where it seemed like every band was trying to make a point of not sounding like the others, you had everything from tortoise to Mogwai to Cerberus shoal to the Rachel's to all the weird little ensembles on kranky and constellation. EITS came along and I just couldn't connect with it. Then suddenly all the local bands that were playing 'emo' got delay pedals and stopped writing coded poetry about girls they wanted to fuck and instead thought a five minute buildup was the most moving thing ever written. I dunno, I just couldn't handle it. Came across as very homogenised and fake.

Best thing I've read on this board ever I feel like this thread has turned a page.....

gunslinger_burrito wrote:Nadja does a good job, in mt opinion, of writing "post-something-whatever" music that somehow doesn't sound like anyone else to me. A lot of Aiden Baker's solo stuff is pretty different, too.
http://nadja.bandcamp.com/album/queller

Yeah - I think I mentioned Nadja in the first post, but they do something so unique. Guy is so prolific and I'd be hard pressed to think of a record of his I dislike, even though I like some way more than others. When he lived in Toronto I basically bought everything from him direct, so I own so much fucking Nadja/Aidan Baker stuff it would destroy your mind..... thanks for the link, I didn't know there were new links up..... checking out this new track right now.

dude, I'm fucking stoked for this new record. I love that new track.

D.o.S. wrote:

dase wrote: Could argue for days about how something so interesting became so goddamn traditionalist and WHITE. But anyway.

Because post rock was such a hotbed of non-white band membership back in the day.

hahaha. Yeah but at least some of those bands were about CO-OPTING styles outside of a western pop music cultural millieu. That still counts!

gunslinger_burrito wrote:dude, I'm fucking stoked for this new record. I love that new track.

Really good. I still haven't tracked down Flipper but Dagdrom was stellar. I like Nadja best when they're collaborating with other people most of the time but I can do with a new full on record. I like that he's slowed down their output over the past year or two so I can absorb each one more....