Cables, cables, cables....

[MEC]

A lot of people, some who have even looked into Evidence before, are unaware that they've recently released a few models that finally bridge the gap between studio quality cables and cables that are durable enough for the road. Their newest cable The Reveal is my favorite at the moment and is what I currently use and just rewired my entire setup with. It's the same diameter as their instrument cable stuff (not mini like the Monorail), flexible due to a stranded core, and has the clarity Evidence Audio is known for.

I also use their speaker cable, The Siren II, and as you said it's a HUGE improvement. To me I've noticed the biggest sonic improvements by upgrading first the speaker cable and then the first instrument cable from the guitar. The rest obviously plays a factor but those 2 locations are the crucial ones in my opinion.

I definitely hear a difference with an upgraded instrument cable and McSpunkle gave the various reasons why. I don't understand and have never seen a good explanation for the use of "high end" speaker cables though. I've heard the sales pitches, but do you (or any one else) know the technical reasons for sonic improvements in "high end" speaker cables over "low end" cables or even lamp cord for that matter?

Also, thanks for the link to your site. I'll be getting my next set of patch cables from you for sure.

[Ancient Astronaught]

I definitely hear a difference with an upgraded instrument cable and McSpunkle gave the various reasons why. I don't understand and have never seen a good explanation for the use of "high end" speaker cables though. I've heard the sales pitches, but do you (or any one else) know the technical reasons for sonic improvements in "high end" speaker cables over "low end" cables or even lamp cord for that matter?

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, speaker cables carry as much signal and more than a regular instrument cable. If you try and run 100+ watts through through lamp cord your going to run into major problems, like running a marathon while breathing through a straw. High end speaker cables have less frequency negation and allow better lows and high's to be heard clearly and allow power to be transfer from amp to speaker easier which means your amp doesnt have to work as hard. I personally felt the differences between cheap speaker cables and expensive cables were minor in comparison to instrument cables when it came to tone but greater when it came to clarity at higher volumes.

[MEC]

I definitely hear a difference with an upgraded instrument cable and McSpunkle gave the various reasons why. I don't understand and have never seen a good explanation for the use of "high end" speaker cables though. I've heard the sales pitches, but do you (or any one else) know the technical reasons for sonic improvements in "high end" speaker cables over "low end" cables or even lamp cord for that matter?

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, speaker cables carry as much signal and more than a regular instrument cable. If you try and run 100+ watts through through lamp cord your going to run into major problems, like running a marathon while breathing through a straw. High end speaker cables have less frequency negation and allow better lows and high's to be heard clearly and allow power to be transfer from amp to speaker easier which means your amp doesnt have to work as hard. I personally felt the differences between cheap speaker cables and expensive cables were minor in comparison to instrument cables when it came to tone but greater when it came to clarity at higher volumes.

Yeah, but speaker cables don't connect the amp to the speaker they just make the connection from amp jack to cab jack.
The wire going from the cab jack to the actual speakers which is generally the same length or more than the speaker cable is usually not $30 per ft. high grade audio wire. From what I've seen, it's mostly standard 14-16 gauge stranded.

If there is an audible difference, I'm glad I can't hear it.

[McSpunckle]

Speaker cables are one of those areas where the specs just don't match reality.

Speaker cables shouldn't be too thin, because the speakers have such low impedance (16 ohms at the most), and the series resistance would basically create a voltage divider, and you'd lose signal. BUT, even a 24 gauge wire at 5 feet would only be 1/8 ohm, so you're not likely to see any negative effects in any realistic speaker cable-- since they're all pretty well much thicker than that, and even that small of wire wouldn't even see a 1dB loss.

They do have capacitance, but the runs are very short and the impedance is quite low, so that won't be a major issue either.

Current is the main concern. The current of a 100 watt amp into an 8 ohm load is 3.5 amps. It depends on the specific wire how much current they can handle, but if you stick with about 18 gauge, you'd be fine with a 100 watt amp. A lot of instrument cables are about that size. (Canare GS-6 actually lists amp to cabinet leads in the specs-- it's 18 gauge).

If you're like me and use a lunchbox amp, though, you can basically just use the same patch cords you use for your pedals and be fine. That's what I'm doing now. Heh. It doesn't sound any different.

This only applies to guitar amps. Obviously PA systems are more powerful, and have much longer cable runs, so they'll require much thicker wires. And bassists with super high power amps (are silly) should probably get fairly thick wires.

Food for thought: 10 amp circuits in your house are likely wired with 14 gauge, and that's 1,500 watts.

[Ancient Astronaught]

Mcspunckle to the rescue again! thank you sir for providing founded realistic information it is much appreciated! So what is the difference in tone that people say they hear with upgraded speaker cables? is it really the purity of the copper like evidence say's or is it some sort of mental psycho-acoustic effect of people wanting to justify spending that much on a cable?

[McSpunckle]

I'd imagine most of it is placebo effect. I've personally experienced that with expensive guitar cables-- namely planet waves. When I first got them, I was convinced there was that oh-so-subtle difference... but after the "new" wore off I couldn't hear it anymore.

I can't imagine the purity of the copper doing much in a short speaker cable. For one thing, I can't imagine copper being all that impure. Oxygen free copper is used a lot, but if you do a quick Google search, you'll find that it's only useful in MUCH more demanding applications. Like, stuff NASA would do. Or semiconductors, but that's more boring than NASA.

This Wikipedia page is basically the same as the info you'll find anywhere but audiophile boards and manufacturer sites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-fre ... plications

And here's a page that raises a point I'd never thought of, but makes perfect sense:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Speakers can have different impedance to different frequencies. It makes sense, given the fact the main electrical component in them is a coil (it's also what makes tube amp transformers sound different). So, the losses from the resistance in your cable could be greater at different frequencies-- which really would change your sound!

But, still, the resistance, which is mostly related to wire gauge, is still the only thing that really matters, and given how short amp-to-cab leads are, that isn't going to be very high.

[Gunner Recall]

I rolled my own EA Siren...it was dirt cheap and easy.
I didn't notice a huge difference, but it's a much nicer cable than the ratty patch-looking thing I was using before.
I no longer have to worry about my amp bursting into flames

The biggest change tonally was upgrading from cheapo GC cables to mogami going from my board-->amp (also did it myself).
It was night and day, like I was playing through a completely different rig...like a blanket off my amp blahblahblah
Had to re-eq my amp and everything, but my rig sounded better as a result.

Lava ELC patches, I'm not sure I noticed any tonal difference but I did notice lower noise compared to the hosas I was running.

[Ancient Astronaught]

The biggest change tonally was upgrading from cheapo GC cables to mogami going from my board-->amp (also did it myself).
It was night and day, like I was playing through a completely different rig...like a blanket off my amp blahblahblah
Had to re-eq my amp and everything, but my rig sounded better as a result.

Lava ELC patches, I'm not sure I noticed any tonal difference but I did notice lower noise compared to the hosas I was running.

That is exactly what i went through when i switched to all lava cables, all of a sudden the mids, highs and presence on my model t were usable and not harsh sounding and actually very pleasant for once, like you said it was like lifting a blanket off my amp! I also completely agree with the lower noise, it was like plugging your amp into an actual power conditioner instead of just a power strip, the hum and noise reduction was extremely noticeable.

It's interesting to see the differences between real world experience with a hyped product and the sale's pitches they throw at you... Maybe we should start a sticky covering these kind's of issues for kind of a "what is really what they say it is and what isnt" FAQ. I'm sure there's ton's of people who would contribute list's of pedals that would fit into that category also....

[McSpunckle]

Word up. I had a cheap cable from the music store when I first started out. The guy assured me they were as good as anything out there. I forgot my cable when at a friend's house, and just went and picked up a Fender cable... night and day difference. No placebo effect on that one.

Haven't heard such a difference since, though. Just subtle ones.

[ARC Effects]

McSpunckle is pretty spot on with the technical knowledge but I can't agree with the tonal improvement of higher end cables being a placebo effect. I'm by no means an EE but I do have hands and ears and the tonal improvement is absolutely there and this coming from a person who upgraded from a pretty nice cable as it was (Mogami).

I've been kicking around the idea of a "cable tourbox" , would any of you guys be interested?

[Holy Schnikes]

The biggest change tonally was upgrading from cheapo GC cables to mogami going from my board-->amp (also did it myself).
It was night and day, like I was playing through a completely different rig...like a blanket off my amp blahblahblah
Had to re-eq my amp and everything, but my rig sounded better as a result.

Lava ELC patches, I'm not sure I noticed any tonal difference but I did notice lower noise compared to the hosas I was running.

That is exactly what i went through when i switched to all lava cables, all of a sudden the mids, highs and presence on my model t were usable and not harsh sounding and actually very pleasant for once, like you said it was like lifting a blanket off my amp! I also completely agree with the lower noise, it was like plugging your amp into an actual power conditioner instead of just a power strip, the hum and noise reduction was extremely noticeable.

It's interesting to see the differences between real world experience with a hyped product and the sale's pitches they throw at you... Maybe we should start a sticky covering these kind's of issues for kind of a "what is really what they say it is and what isnt" FAQ. I'm sure there's ton's of people who would contribute list's of pedals that would fit into that category also....

Same experience here with my upgraded cables. Picked up Sommer GrindyCop Beasts for my instrument cables and the Lava ELC Kit for the board.

I definitely heard an improvement, fuller tone with a smoother eq response and WAY LESS NOISE on my huge pedalboard. Also had to re-eq my amp quite a bit when changing over. Another big reason I switched was the ability to use custom cable lengths resulting in much shorter runs than I used previously, another factor to consider in the perceived improvement. Also, the plugs utilized in the Lava Kit are TINY, making a crowded board much easier to wire.

Then there's reliability. If constructed correctly, the Lava's are top notch, no failures yet. If I was comfortable soldering, I'd go that route and save some bucks and have even sturdier cables.

Regardless, I feel a cable upgrade is well worth it, especially when you're spending a bunch of $$ on nice pedals, then connecting everything with budget cable.

[Baxandall]

...
I can't imagine the purity of the copper doing much in a short speaker cable. For one thing, I can't imagine copper being all that impure. Oxygen free copper is used a lot, but if you do a quick Google search, you'll find that it's only useful in MUCH more demanding applications. Like, stuff NASA would do. Or semiconductors, but that's more boring than NASA.

But then isn't it super important if you play space rock?

Sorry couldn't resist that one.

[Gone Fission]

It's not necessarily that there's nothing to hear; the question is what you're hearing and whether it's the costliest aspect of the cable that you're hearing. Capacitance is the biggest factor, and often whether it's good or bad depends heavily on all elements of the system from guitar pickup to amp input. High capacitance cable in some rigs can really smooth down a Strat's or Tele's brittleness and effect a midrange boost by shifting the resonant peak, but it's a delicate thing -- sometimes the cable capacitance adds up to ice-pick sound with a resonant peak around 3 kHz.

Some don't like low capacitance cable because they feel like it takes away body, though it's more likely it's just that the highs are no longer veiled. Early PRS guitars had something called a "sweet switch" that added series capacitance to emulate the mellowing effect and midrange resonance of a long cable run and all that capacitance. You might like that sound sometimes, but with a switch, you can go the other way and get a more open sound -- smart.

If I recall, the usual Mogami and Canare are kind of middling in capacitance. Some expensive stuff is high capacitance, some low. Belden 8218 is or is close to what Bill Lawrence uses and what George L's used to use, and is pretty cheap per foot if you're buying 500 feet at a time. If you solder your own connectors (Good cheap is Rean for straight, GLS for pancake right-angle), Bill Lawrence/Wilde by the foot is a pretty good deal for 100 feet or less.

Oh, and the info from the BL/Wilde site has some decent reading on how to actively tune capacitance as an intentional act of tone shaping. Useful reading.

[McSpunckle]

Just wanted to add this info. It's not something I know a whole lot about. I'd never even thought of inductance as an issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wi ... inductance

Basically, according to that, effects of capacitance with normal lamp cord aren't audible for 50 feet, but inductance would be audible at over 25 feet. Higher end cables apparently sacrifice a higher capacitance to bring down inductance.