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ohsojayadeva wrote:I'm simply baffled why, when seeing a large group of workers fighting for their own livelihood, and as one person said, to ensure that future workers are not subject to the same problems, some viewed by default that these workers have some kind of malevolent ulterior motive.

that's the entire point: i'm not seeing "a large group of workers fighting for their own livelihood"; i see a tiny group of labor agitators overseas, and a small group of diehard holdouts in Korea. and that's as represented by the union-generated propaganda. i'm also not seeing any documentation whatsoever for any of the claims other than union-generated propaganda; to begin with, actually showing that whatever Korean "court" (no pun intended) made the findings claimed in the press release at ohsojayadeva's last link would be a start. documenting and contextualizing the garbage "statistics" in that press release by, e.g., comparing the wage rates at the Cort plants to prevailing skilled/unskilled industrial wage rates in SK, contextualizing the $XXX amount in "profit" by giving the percentage of profit to income (because if you made $500 million but you only made 0.5% profit in an economy with 3% inflation, you lost money), showing whether the company was increasing or decreasing in profitability over the years the union lumps together as profitable, or noting that 2007--the year of the controversial plant closings--was also the year that saw the onset of the global recession and concomitant drop in demand for manufactured consumer goods such as, er, musical instruments, would be even better. and if you expect me to even begin to take your argument seriously, you have to address the counter-argument. in any case, i should hope that adults require more information for informed decision-making than this sort of transparently manipulative anecdotal BS.

See, the difference between you and I is that neither one of us has been given any reason to believe what these people are saying is anything but genuine, but your default position seems to be one of mistrust. That doesn't make sense to me. What do they have to gain by lying? If you honestly believe these workers aren't on the level, this should be a pretty easy question to answer.

Thanks for sharing the video.

I've seen some dumb things being said

ohsojayadeva wrote:See, the difference between you and I is that neither one of us has been given any reason to believe what these people are saying is anything but genuine, but your default position seems to be one of mistrust. That doesn't make sense to me. What do they have to gain by lying? If you honestly believe these workers aren't on the level, this should be a pretty easy question to answer.

Pretty much what I was thinking.

Also people who claim that this is a Union boss agenda/propaganda really has no idea how most Unions work. Not to mention that most of the propaganda comes out from the anti-union side. The difference is the latter has become normalized. It's funny to hear the Union bashing, people are so divorced from the reality of what actually occurs and what owners do to undermine legitimate issues. I'm not saying there aren't shitty Union leaders (I've death with many) but ultimately Unions fight for its members, and generally the members have a vote or a say in whether to proceed in challenging the owners.

I'd much rather back a Union leader who fights for my livelihood than a shitty owner and politician who doesn't give a shit about their representatives.

my "default position" is to be skeptical of all unproven claims, and further, that anecdotes are not equal to evidence, and are no substitute for evidence. until you've got some actual substantiation for the claims being made from a reasonably impartial source--i'd settle for an internationally recognized news service, or even a major newspaper from SK with an English-language website--you've got nothing. i don't have to supply alternative explanations for lame anecdotal propaganda; i'm not the person asking people to boycott products. you're the person who has the responsibility to produce actual, reliable, checkable evidence of your claims--not just sad unconfirmed stories about what supposedly happened to so-and-so at the factory--or you're just spouting random jive. by the level of evidence you're offering, someone could claim that we should boycott Cort because they killed Bigfoot if they just had a few people talk on screen with subtitles saying "and then my foreman shot the sasquatch between the eyes" and put out a press release saying "the Korean Court found that Cor-Tec killed Bigfoot and it was UNFAIR." please.

tashiattack wrote:Also people who claim that this is a Union boss agenda/propaganda really has no idea how most Unions work. Not to mention that most of the propaganda comes out from the anti-union side.

that's not the issue at hand. the topic here is Cort, and the propaganda is union-produced.

Maybe the CEO should start saying something...or perhaps there's a reason he doesn't want to say anything...

or perhaps there's a reason why the advocates of this cause show no documentary evidence. hm?

Do you want a pay stub? What do you want as evidence? Words are bond.

Bellyheart wrote:Do you want a pay stub? What do you want as evidence? Words are bond.

dubkitty wrote:my "default position" is to be skeptical of all unproven claims, and further, that anecdotes are not equal to evidence, and are no substitute for evidence. until you've got some actual substantiation for the claims being made from a reasonably impartial source--i'd settle for an internationally recognized news service, or even a major newspaper from SK with an English-language website--you've got nothing. i don't have to supply alternative explanations for lame anecdotal propaganda; i'm not the person asking people to boycott products. you're the person who has the responsibility to produce actual, reliable, checkable evidence of your claims--not just sad unconfirmed stories about what supposedly happened to so-and-so at the factory--or you're just spouting random jive. by the level of evidence you're offering, someone could claim that we should boycott Cort because they killed Bigfoot if they just had a few people talk on screen with subtitles saying "and then my foreman shot the sasquatch between the eyes" and put out a press release saying "the Korean Court found that Cor-Tec killed Bigfoot and it was UNFAIR." please.

(emphasis added, because it apparently wasn't sufficiently clear the first time around)

words are not "bond" anywhere except in cliche; they are, in some circumstances, contract; however, absent supporting evidence, they're just words.

i'm sorry to have become so argumentative. i'm not that particularly invested in the situation. however, i'm quite frankly intellectually offended by the emotional-anecdote-as-policy-prescription style of argument exhibited here that's so prevalent in political and social discussions today. i've also been seeing this same campaign, with the same video and lack of any other supporting documentation, come up around every NAMM and Musikmesse since 09 and it's about time someone asked WTF. one wonders how workers who have been unemployed for four years now can fly to NAMM.

It is not anyone's responsibility here to prove anything to anyone else.
No one is being forced to buy or not to buy anything.

If you watched the video and thought:
Those people are probably telling the truth, I'll have to do some more research before my next guitar purchase."
or
"Those people are probably lying, I would have no problem buying a guitar manufactured by Cort"

That's fine, it's your opinion.

My opinion is we should all do a little more research before we purchase anything.
The only real voice most of us have is not in our votes, it's in how we spend our cash.


I chose to spend my cash buying Fuzz pedals from ILF members and that's probably why no one gives a fuck what I think.

...so documents are the only way to prove something...yeah, no one ever makes false documents. You're an interesting thinker...you do you and I'll do me...and we'll both still exist and be happy.

Bellyheart wrote:...so documents are the only way to prove something...yeah, no one ever makes false documents. You're an interesting thinker...you do you and I'll do me...and we'll both still exist and be happy.

NO WE WONT FUCK YOU YOUR WRONG

MiddleEarthCrisis wrote:It is not anyone's responsibility here to prove anything to anyone else.
No one is being forced to buy or not to buy anything.

If you watched the video and thought:
Those people are probably telling the truth, I'll have to do some more research before my next guitar purchase."
or
"Those people are probably lying, I would have no problem buying a guitar manufactured by Cort"

That's fine, it's your opinion.

My opinion is we should all do a little more research before we purchase anything.
The only real voice most of us have is not in our votes, it's in how we spend our cash.


I chose to spend my cash buying Fuzz pedals from ILF members and that's probably why no one gives a fuck what I think.

Yep yep. More research is needed. Nobody would say they want workers to be treated badly anywhere-- but that won't make them spend a bit more on their underwear.

But you can't research it. You'll see companies making statements that they're investigating problems, but you can't find the info on what they're actually doing. A few companies do talk about how the factories they're using are better. There's a video about Behringer's factory that suggests it's not quite so terrible, and I've bought a few products that say things like "Made ethically in China"-- but I can't verify it.

It's really disheartening seeing people assume these workers are lying, or writing it off as "well they could just quit!" or "that's just how it is..." It's just an excuse not to care. Basically, these people's lives aren't worth paying slightly more for your cheap plastic shit.