I still don't have a satisfactory main dirty sound...

[Roseweave]

You can very much tell, believe me. At stage volumes modeling amps get... problematic. Muddy, unfocused. I worked at a rehearsal/recording studio in LA that did a lot of industry showcases, and the head tech hated it when anyone tried to use a modeling amp in a showcase because it took massive effort to make it fit in the mix.

What "Modeling amp"? Not all "modeling amps" are the same. And there's no inherent reason why a modeling or SS amp has to be "muddy or unfocused".

This kind of nonsense is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of signal theory and digital technology which is why it annoys me, especially when people who are theoretically very intelligent subscribe to it.

"Experiences" doesn't change how the theory works. The traditionalistic nature of guitarists really gets me some times.

The effect that causes digital amps to be more difficult to hear in a live situation is the Fletcher Munson phenomenon. Tubes tend to compensate better for this effect by changing their character while cranked. However, this just means you need to re-tweak the settings on the amp, generally, and not all amps will be effect in the same way. Also the AD30VT has a tube in the power section anyway to make it respond in more or less the same way, and newer Line 6 stuff has compensation built in. It's just an EQ trick. Plus using modeling you'd often go direct out - so the effect doesn't always apply in this situation. You're talking about a "digital" sound somehow not being as easy to mix which is silly.

If you're mixing a digital amp you just need to boost the upper mids. Or just use an EQ pedal.

A 12AX7 is a preamp tube.

But it's USING it as a power amp tube. Meaning it involves a tube but is using it in a way that evidentally hasn't been used before, so you shouldn't judge it by the standards of previous modeling amps.

The reason it does this as far as I can tell is that you can saturate 12AX7s at very low voltage, but it's being used in the power stage of the amp. It's got a special circuit that emulates class A, B, and Class AB amps. You can actually get a proper "cranked tube" sound at low volumes. As far as I know using an actual power tube would require an awful lot of power. I'm not sure exactly how it works, it explains it in the Valvetronix manual. Even without the tube(direct out) it still sounds great.

I would suggest you target your amp when you're looking at this problem - get a decent tube amp (there are cheap ones available!) or find a good non-digital solid state. Things will start looking better.

There's nothing wrong with my amp. I love my amp. My problem is that the kind of sounds I'm after are generally only found in amps that aren't quite so cheap, or don't exist. The only amp I was really interested in that I have money and space for was the Tiny Terror but I use too much delay/verb for it to be practical. There's nothing wrong with modelling amps inherently. The AD30VT is miles beyond the likes of the Spider. And it handles high volume pretty well too, if anything it sounds better like that.

If a Solid State amp can sound "unmuddy" then there's no reason a digital amp can't either. Digital amps aren't quite as good as real tube amps, but they're better than the vast majority of SS amps too.

[royaltrux]

I agree with Roseweave.

I happen to be one of those "Traditional" guitarists who likes old-school tube amps, but that doesn't mean I'm not open to anything else.

Like I said above, I have played these and I do think they have some good qualities. I'm not sure I can tell distinctly between the supposed 15 or so "models," but I know it does a good AC30 and a pretty good Marshall, and there is a setting that can get you an approximation of Fender "clean."

And let's be honest --- those tones are pretty much what most of us are looking for.

[Roseweave]

Keep in mind a lot of modelers have muddy or brittle speakers - it wasn't until I swapped out mine that I got "tube" like tones.

[Roseweave]

I think I might have identified my problem here.

There just aren't really all that many "alternative" distortion sounds. You pretty much have to use an overdriven bass amp, an Orange amp, or a fuzz. Most distortions sound pretty similar; all "British" amps have that same kind of high upper mids crunch thing going on, even the Oranges which are a bit darker aren't really that different. There's a few different high gain sounds, pretty much all of them oriented to METAL.

I hate the lack of innovation in this regard. I guess it's what drove me to buying Devi pedals, and really they've been a Godsend, I can't get over the crazy sound the SM makes cranked, but it's still Fuzz.

The kind of sound I imagine has some degree of transparancey. For that reason I've started using my Little Big Muff again, while I much prefer overall the Soda Meiser as a fuzz, the LBM has a nice transparency to it - I like being able to hear the guitar.

I think the best overall pedal I've heard for my needs is the MI Audio Crunch Box. I'll probably pick one up at some point.

The other problem is that most alt rock bands use other stuff with their dirt to get "different" sounds - Goth Rock bands use chorus and short delay times, Shoegaze uses Reverb, Pitch Shifting, Phasers.

For this reason I'm pretty interested in the EHX Memory Boy. It has Chorus and Vibrato on it which could be very nice. Maybe a little modulated delay would give me the more saturated sound I'm looking for.

I should probably also sell my Small Clone and invest in another, more transparent Chorus pedal. But I'm not sure which one.

I'll probably sell my Small Clone and Turbo RAT to fund all this. They're both great pedals but they're not for me at the moment.

[royaltrux]

I'll probably sell my Small Clone and Turbo RAT to fund all this. They're both great pedals but they're not for me at the moment.

I would highly suggest pairing the Memory Boy with an expression pedal. You can get both for $150 or so, which is really insane given the tones you are going to get.

I wouldn't even buy a memory boy without an expression pedal - I would just hold out for the new malekko.

[1,2,3, Pull Out!]

I'll probably sell my Small Clone and Turbo RAT to fund all this. They're both great pedals but they're not for me at the moment.

I would highly suggest pairing the Memory Boy with an expression pedal. You can get both for $150 or so, which is really insane given the tones you are going to get.

I wouldn't even buy a memory boy without an expression pedal - I would just hold out for the new malekko.

That's MY plan

[Roseweave]

I'll probably sell my Small Clone and Turbo RAT to fund all this. They're both great pedals but they're not for me at the moment.

I would highly suggest pairing the Memory Boy with an expression pedal. You can get both for $150 or so, which is really insane given the tones you are going to get.

I wouldn't even buy a memory boy without an expression pedal - I would just hold out for the new malekko.

Doesn't the EXP pedal just increase the modulation time and shit?

I might get a PEEP.

[Roseweave]

You know maybe I just need more Fuzz after all.

Devi come up with more $95 pedals >: |

Failing that maybe I should run an existing Fuzz into an EQ to boost the mids... are there any fuzzes that have natural high mid modes? It's not the classic fuzz sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nQXMSTSc2M

The TBD seems to have kinda high mids on some settings.

[Antero]

What "Modeling amp"? Not all "modeling amps" are the same. And there's no inherent reason why a modeling or SS amp has to be "muddy or unfocused".

You'd think, but it's not so. Digitally-modeled distortion is a goddamn mess in a live setting.

Analog solid state is totally cool. I prefer tubes for what I do, but a well-made solid state amp can kick ass in any setting. The Roland Jazz Chorus has one of the best clean tones ever, and the solid-state Traynors from the 1970s are very, very cool. Properly built, properly designed solid state amps are great, and they are unfairly stigmatized by the overwhelming presence of shitty, badly built, cut-rate SS amps on the modern market.

"Experiences" doesn't change how the theory works.

Now this, this is funny. I'm a U of Chicago kid, and one of the joke t-shirts that is commonly seen on campus reads, "That's all well and good in practice, but how does it work in theory?"

I rolled into a show last night, and the first band up was a guitar/bass/keys/drums setup. They were setting up and the soundguy was mixing their spread. Guitarist was playing some chords, using a lightly distorted tone and position 4 on a strat. It sounded pretty good, held up well with the complex 9th chords and so forth.

Then they started playing.

Immediately, the guitar completely disappeared. This was a problem. This was a huge, massive goddamn problem. The bassist wasn't doing any more than playing the root 90% of the time. The keyboardist would generally do no more than grab a single chord and hold it, and he was mixed low on top of that. Where the fuck was the guitar? They had it turned up louder than every single thing on stage, and they asked the soundguy to turn it up even louder in the monitors every other song, but I still couldn't even here the attack on the chords, much less the 7ths. I could tell that he was playing, but it was just a muddy mess of undefined sound.

Then I saw him walk back to his amp and adjust the settings, and realized that he was playing through a digital amp - one of those Fender Cyber-Twins, I think. No effects on the floor, just distortion and delay from the amp. The guitar was fucking cranked, and yet it had zero definition as soon as anyone else started playing.

So, that's the reality.

Boosting the upper-midrange is not a solution; it will draw attention to the fact that the guitar is being played, yes, but it will also cut at the annoying part of the treble range, and unless you're going to drown everything else out you're still going to lack definition with a digital amp. I don't know enough to comment on the physics or the theory behind any of this - it's entirely possible that the theory is completely, totally, 100% correct. If it is, however, the application of that theory is flawed and insufficient.

I'm not going to front like I'm a grizzled veteran - I'm not - but I have played quite a number of shows, including sitting in with a group that had two other guitarists and a rhythm section, and I've never had to struggle to be heard. I don't rely on volume to be heard - usually less watts and less speakers - and my tone is darker than anyone I play with.

[Roseweave]

You'd think, but it's not so. Digitally-modeled distortion is a goddamn mess in a live setting.

No it isn't. Give me some science behind it or it's just cork sniffing.

Analog solid state is totally cool. I prefer tubes for what I do, but a well-made solid state amp can kick ass in any setting. The Roland Jazz Chorus has one of the best clean tones ever, and the solid-state Traynors from the 1970s are very, very cool. Properly built, properly designed solid state amps are great, and they are unfairly stigmatized by the overwhelming presence of shitty, badly built, cut-rate SS amps on the modern market.

There's no difference in ability to cut between a well designed Solid State and well designed Modeler.

A modeler IS just a really complex SS amp, aside from the fact that it converts the signal to digital - which happens anyway if you press it to CD or even mic up at some live venues. Unless you have shit AD converts, it's not an issue.

So, that's the reality.

No, it's an experience with one amp that was badly set up.

Boosting the upper-midrange is not a solution;

Yes it is. What you're describing is the Fletcher Munson effect in action. That would be EXACTLY the solution. The upper mids, where the guitar gets it's definition(and what gets boosted when you crank a tube amp), are missing. If they were boosted using an EQ pedal or otherwise, this wouldn't have been an issue.

I don't know enough to comment on the physics or the theory behind any of this - it's entirely possible that the theory is completely, totally, 100% correct. If it is, however, the application of that theory is flawed and insufficient.

No it isn't. It's just you interpretation of it that's flawed and insufficient. Ther are plenty of awful SS amps that won't cut either. You fail to understand exactly what a "Digital" amp is.

Being able to cut in a live situation is ALL down to EQ. And EQ can be altered. Really, whoever was at the mixing desk should have corrected this.

[iamthesnow]

[Pirate]

I have nothing to add to this thread that is helpful in any way,but LOL at the little big muff having transparency.

[CBGB]

Rosewave - have you played live with your amp, and did it cut through OK?

[Roseweave]

I have nothing to add to this thread that is helpful in any way,but LOL at the little big muff having transparency.

It does compared to higher gain fuzzes, and more recent reissues of the Big Muff Pi. You can actually use it as an overdrive sound. A lot of modern muffs are a lot more "muffly". With the LBM you can actually hear the individual strings to an extent with the tone turned up.

[Roseweave]

Rosewave - have you played live with your amp, and did it cut through OK?

No, but I've known people that have.

Also, the ZT Lunchbox is a "digital" amp and I've never heard anyone having problems with it cutting. Quite the opposite in fact.