Ring mods 101

[cherler]

MF-102: good wide range option with an always on drive control, ton of features, and a cleaner soubd. The biggest problem is that the preamp will get saturated with certain fuzzes/gain pedals and their emphasized frequencies. If you are relying on fuzz, it might not be the best option. It can sound weak with extreme highs, octave fuzz, buffers, or high gain (before and after).

I haven't noticed any problems with this, is it an issue of having the preamp gain set higher?

[lordgalvar]

The drive control can really screw with input impedance after (like no musitronics after mf-102) but what I was referring to was the way the ic handles ring mod I think.

The mf-102 is setup to handle widely different input signals (mic, line, guitar, etc) and I think it is very general purpose. When running a very odd harmonic drive into it, the preamp probably pushes all frequencies equally (or more fairly than like the HAX or gonkulator which introduce clipping/shaping to the instrument) which I think can create some weird cancellization/compression (via saturation on certain peaks and valleys) anomalies with the sidebands created from balanced modulation.

A good example of this the ss/bs mini and frostwave blue ringer V.2 in my opinion. Both sound great on their own, but there must be some kind of harmonic conflict between the mini's voicing and the blue ringer 's carrier. Everything gets less cutting and more dull sounding.

I think specialized preamps can help a lot in avoiding "dead spots" in the overall sweep of a carrier, but changing the carrier can also fix the situation.

It may arise from the more ideal switching of the ic versus diodes (which tends to be softer in transition)...but diodes require more careful attention to the levels of carrier/modulator.

Autopilot/copilot also reminded me a while ago that certain frequencies may be heard easier by the ear than others...so it could be partially that (sideband outside of hearing or the ear picking up one over the other). I do know that on a lot of these building carrier oscillators have varying amplitude over a sweep which may be partially to blame also (if you watch the carrier of the HAX or swan song on a scope, the amplitude lowers as the frequency gets higher. Not enough time to raise the voltage before changing direction?)

With the mf-102, the more complex the fuzz, the weaker it sounds in my opinion. I love the mf-102, I was just pointing out a potential flaw in some situations.

just my thoughts.

[cherler]

I'm definitely going to keep an eye out for this, I wonder if there is a varied amplitude with the mf-102. The rise time issue makes a lot of sense as to why the amplitude would shrink as frequency goes up. And now that you mention it, huge differences in carrier vs signal with a diode ring does sound bad.

I hadn't thought about it this deeply before, I got it cause I wanted to make bell sounds haha. Thanks though, I'm definitely going to watch out for this. Maybe see if I can make it happen tonight when I get home.

[Christophe]

Ahhh ringmods. The single most annoying pedal on the planet next to autowah.

I would recommend turning your amp all the way up, then taking a drill to the electronics to see what noises you can come up with. That would sound better than any ring mod I've heard/tried. Or you could just smash all your pedals and shit on them. That would be more fun.

For the longest time I thought ring mods were useless, until I heard Fairfield's Randy's Revenge. That thing sounds more organic than robot-like... Incredibly gorgeous.
(way over 200 bucks though).

[UglyCasanova]

This performance is actually what made me want a ring mod

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3nCXxYhQPI[/youtube]

[Christophe]

Yeah indeed, killer riffs with ring mod here...

[rickenbastard]

The drive control can really screw with input impedance after (like no musitronics after mf-102) but what I was referring to was the way the ic handles ring mod I think.

The mf-102 is setup to handle widely different input signals (mic, line, guitar, etc) and I think it is very general purpose. When running a very odd harmonic drive into it, the preamp probably pushes all frequencies equally (or more fairly than like the HAX or gonkulator which introduce clipping/shaping to the instrument) which I think can create some weird cancellization/compression (via saturation on certain peaks and valleys) anomalies with the sidebands created from balanced modulation.

A good example of this the ss/bs mini and frostwave blue ringer V.2 in my opinion. Both sound great on their own, but there must be some kind of harmonic conflict between the mini's voicing and the blue ringer 's carrier. Everything gets less cutting and more dull sounding.

I think specialized preamps can help a lot in avoiding "dead spots" in the overall sweep of a carrier, but changing the carrier can also fix the situation.

It may arise from the more ideal switching of the ic versus diodes (which tends to be softer in transition)...but diodes require more careful attention to the levels of carrier/modulator.

Autopilot/copilot also reminded me a while ago that certain frequencies may be heard easier by the ear than others...so it could be partially that (sideband outside of hearing or the ear picking up one over the other). I do know that on a lot of these building carrier oscillators have varying amplitude over a sweep which may be partially to blame also (if you watch the carrier of the HAX or swan song on a scope, the amplitude lowers as the frequency gets higher. Not enough time to raise the voltage before changing direction?)

With the mf-102, the more complex the fuzz, the weaker it sounds in my opinion. I love the mf-102, I was just pointing out a potential flaw in some situations.

just my thoughts.

I run my Ultra Megalith and Frequency LSD maxed into my MF-102 and even when they're clipping the MF-102 it's still offensively powerful and loud...letting the Frequency LSD feedback in Freq Out mode into the MF-102 is amazing btw.

[cherler]

This performance is actually what made me want a ring mod

Woah that was awesome

[Uncle Grandfather]

not sure if this was already mentioned but the Lovetone RIng Stinger is

[lordgalvar]

...see above..

just my thoughts.

I run my Ultra Megalith and Frequency LSD maxed into my MF-102 and even when they're clipping the MF-102 it's still offensively powerful and loud...letting the Frequency LSD feedback in Freq Out mode into the MF-102 is amazing btw.

All I said was that it has some problems in specific instances. I was running it in this setup: Yamaha SGV300 -> LAL 86 -> Musitronics Octave Divider -> MF102 -> Musitronics Phasor II -> Sunn Beta Lead. The sound was pretty dead. Took out the musitronics one-by-one and it still sounded kinda dead. It didn't like the LAL 86. There are just a few drives/fuzzes with certain carrier oscs and preamps. I've had this problem with a few different ones (it isn't exclusive to the MF102) like the Melos Ring Modulator, Frostwave Blue Ringer v.2, LAL Sick Pitch King, and a few others. It does seem to me that the problem arises more in the wide range (not guitar specific) preamp pedals with internal carrier and IC based balanced modulation. This mostly pertains to the higher frequencies (up above 2k hz). Frostwave + mini is an example that I mentioned before that just doesn't mesh well. Pretty sure it all has to do with the side bands and harmonic character of the drive (kinda like sweeping through a wave folder and shaper on an oscillator...there are certain points where it sounds weaker).

Diode rings, gilbert cells, quadrant multipliers, and CMOS all accomplish the same things with their own inherent quirks.

None of them are perfect. And I have no problem with the MF102....I have two (from different eras and they do sound slightly different).

I guess I should note that I don't blend back in the fundamental...full on or nothing. I also almost exclusively run in the higher frequncies (like 2000 hz +). Everyone has their own tastes and ears though.

[cherler]

Diode rings, gilbert cells, quadrant multipliers, and CMOS all accomplish the same things with their own inherent quirks.

And now I have a ton of reading to do, I only knew about diode rings before.

[rickenbastard]

All I said was that it has some problems in specific instances. I was running it in this setup: Yamaha SGV300 -> LAL 86 -> Musitronics Octave Divider -> MF102 -> Musitronics Phasor II -> Sunn Beta Lead. The sound was pretty dead. Took out the musitronics one-by-one and it still sounded kinda dead. It didn't like the LAL 86. There are just a few drives/fuzzes with certain carrier oscs and preamps. I've had this problem with a few different ones (it isn't exclusive to the MF102) like the Melos Ring Modulator, Frostwave Blue Ringer v.2, LAL Sick Pitch King, and a few others. It does seem to me that the problem arises more in the wide range (not guitar specific) preamp pedals with internal carrier and IC based balanced modulation. This mostly pertains to the higher frequencies (up above 2k hz). Frostwave + mini is an example that I mentioned before that just doesn't mesh well. Pretty sure it all has to do with the side bands and harmonic character of the drive (kinda like sweeping through a wave folder and shaper on an oscillator...there are certain points where it sounds weaker).

Diode rings, gilbert cells, quadrant multipliers, and CMOS all accomplish the same things with their own inherent quirks.

None of them are perfect. And I have no problem with the MF102....I have two (from different eras and they do sound slightly different).

I guess I should note that I don't blend back in the fundamental...full on or nothing. I also almost exclusively run in the higher frequncies (like 2000 hz +). Everyone has their own tastes and ears though.

I know, definitely not questioning your claim I just wanted to chime in with my experience also. I'm running a bass through it though so the contrast of frequencies probably makes the high end produced by the MF-102 more prominent in the mix.

[behndy]

Vitruvian Mod does FM-sounding ring mod. So cool. You guys.

it is NEAT. and tracks!

[Eric!]

Vitruvian Mod does FM-sounding ring mod. So cool. You guys.

it is NEAT. and tracks!

kinda wondering where all the love fo dis is hiding cuz it seems like a surefire winner

[ck3]

Gonkulator reissue: the distortion smooths things out a bit and it really is pretty good for the price. I think it will play nicer with a larger variety of guitar/bass oriented setups because of the way the preamp is designed. Doesn't have nearly the range of many others (right around a frequency analyzer).

That's a good description of how the Gonkulator RI's distortion interacts with its ring mod effect. I tried to like this pedal, but the constant carrier wave oscillation killed it for me. There are a few settings where it is less present, though it is always screeching in the background when the frequency is set higher. The oscillation noise isn't as intense as what a Sirkut Electronics R-mod can produce, but still annoying enough to result in a return.

Are there any affordable analog ring modulation pedals out there that don't oscillate? I almost got the Moog Minifooger RM instead of the Gonkulator and bet I'll be kicking myself when someone responds.