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Communarchy wrote:They have one voicing, and that's it. Mid heavy, sound good recorded, but I think they pretty lame compared to even the early 00s line. It's more like "here's the Orange sound, that's about it, good luck getting anything other than that out of them."

this is what i was afraid of

Casavettes wrote:

Communarchy wrote:They have one voicing, and that's it. Mid heavy, sound good recorded, but I think they pretty lame compared to even the early 00s line. It's more like "here's the Orange sound, that's about it, good luck getting anything other than that out of them."

this is what i was afraid of

My amp tech worked on a Tiny Terror and said the EQ gives no control over the voicing pre-preamp section. All tone shaping is after the preamp section and it's very simple attenuation over treble and bass. I mean, you can pretty much hear it if you play one. No real control over the flavor of the amp.

Communarchy wrote:My amp tech worked on a Tiny Terror and said the EQ gives no control over the voicing pre-preamp section. All tone shaping is after the preamp section and it's very simple attenuation over treble and bass. I mean, you can pretty much hear it if you play one. No real control over the flavor of the amp.

This is correct. The TT's "tone" control is the same sort of control as Vox's "Cut" control, a post-phase-inverter treble reduction, which is really late in the game to change the character of the sound much. Component choices in the preamp stages and a bright cap on one side of the dual-stage volume control have an influence on the tilt of the tone, but there isn't anything like even a hard-wired tone stack in there, like VHT did in the Special 6. If you like mids, the huge advantage is that there is no midrange scoop built into the amp, which you can't say for any high-power Marshall. Some amps have an option to bypass the tone stack for a boost mode, increasing gains and mids--if you like that sound, there's a good chance you'll like the TT.

It's really curious that they went with two gain stages with no eq and a long-tailed pair phase inverter rather than the classic OR/OD type three gain stages with Bax eq and FAC between stages and then a single triode cathodyne phase inverter. EL-84s don't need much drive, so the low-gain cathodyne should have been just fine with the classic preamp-PI setup. I would think that the LTP into EL-84's would make sense as a way to encourage power-stage distortion first if it wasn't for the fact that a preamp without a tone stack is pretty damned gainy -- the thing is basically just a distortion machine. Probably accounts for its popularity.

(I haven't seen the OR-15 guts or schematics, but by the tube count, even accounting for the effects loop, that one deviates from the old circuits, too. I'm baffled as to why they would mess with the classic circuit, but the company seems to love doing that.)

Gone Fission wrote:(I haven't seen the OR-15 guts or schematics, but by the tube count, even accounting for the effects loop, that one deviates from the old circuits, too. I'm baffled as to why they would mess with the classic circuit, but the company seems to love doing that.)

Here's an OR15 gut shot, uses the same board as the Jim Root signature. Can't remember the differences in those two amps but I think it comes down to a revoiced EQ. I like the sound of the OR15 WAY MORE than any TT I've ever tried. Just sounds beefier and meaner and fuller.

I love the fact that they changed over to a 3 band EQ finally too, much better control of the amp's tone that way, super easy to dial in. I can't deal with a simple "tone" control, too limited. It's not the classic BAX plus FAC but it's still pretty nice. I wish they would've added the HF control tho if they're gonna go calling it an OR. It's really a baby RV imo, minus the verb.

So if you guys could say which ones handle pedals the best? Or fuzz more importantly?
It seems like headroom is an issue with some of the models

I feel like I had similar issues with my vox ac30 cc2, where if I didn't have it set VERY clean then the fuzz would just fart out
My hoof (when I had it) sounded terrible when I'd have the amp set on the edge of breakup.

Even the classic Oranges are pretty gainy and aren't really in the spectrum I would think of for a clean pedal platform -- there's an extra gain stage relative to a plexi Marshall. All the same, the ORs and ODs are less gain oriented than the Terror series stuff, Rockverb, and so forth. If the other current OR's are like the 15, you will have to go back to an earlier reissue or vintage for cleaner. (I half wonder about putting a circuit board in a TT with a full tone-stack with set-and-forget trimmers to shape the tone and suck up some of the gain.)

One thing to consider is that a lot of fuzz players have issues with EL-84 amps. If you aren't looking for that specific output tube tone, 6V6, 6L6, EL-34, 6550, and KT-88's will all deliver more and cleaner bass than EL-84s, which goes a long way for playing well with modern fuzzes. Keep in mind that many of the classic fuzz-into-Vox sounds relied on bass-shy fuzzes and stuff not as gainy as a Big Muff. You want to run heavy dirt into an AC-30, try the normal or trem input and skip the top-boost if you don't want to mush out. Big Muff (which is what a Hoof is) wants a loud clean amp where a Fuzz Face or Tonebender usually works best with an amp that's at least a couple ticks into dirt already.

For Muff, the amps I'd think about are non-master Marshalls, Hiwatts (Custom models more than Lead), Sunn, Ampeg. Maybe blackface or silverface Fenders, but that can lead to maybe too much mid-scoop all at once. That's not to exclude more affordable and recent stuff, but I'd be thinking in that sort of vein.

Gone Fission speaks the truth. I have a Vox AC30 and AC15 and it doesn't like fuzz. Recording, well you can get some cool textures driving fuzz into it, if you turn the bass all the way off. That's my recording set up. But live, fuzzes sound like crap through it, unfortunately. The bass issue is a tube rectifier issue, the rectifier doesn't allow enough power to properly reproduce bass frequencies with out sag and farting out.

If you want Muff you should go with the high powered amps Gone Fission listed. I always talk about it, but my JCM 800 100 watt has been modded with KT88s and will handle any amount of fuzz I can punish it with and at deafening volumes if need be. Other amps I've found to be great for fuzz love is the Ampeg v4 and the music man stuff with the solid state pre and tube power amp. I think it's the HD 130. I have tried fuzz through a few silverface Fenders and results are mixed. I'm not a huge Fender due to the mid scoop, as noted in the last post.

Cassavettes, if you love your Hoof (my fav muff fuzz ever, and I have owned a lot), I can't stress the awesome sound of a Marshall JCM 800 or JMP 2203 (same circuit for the most part). Some early 800s even have 6550s already in them. One's with EL34s will do it too, though I like the low end extension of the bigger tubes and they also seem to have slightly flatter mids than a EL34 set, to my ears. A Plexi reissue may work too, though I've noticed that the newer ones seem to hit distortion way earlier than a vintage Plexi.

In my experience there is no Corelation between Bass response and Tube rectifiers in that kind of general statement. Mesa Dual rectifiers pump Out serious Bass with the Tube rectifiers engaged.

I guess to clarify, what I mean is the tightness of the bass attack and response. The Mesa solid state diode/tube rectifier switching amps, at very high saturation and volume, will have a sag and bloom in the bass response, but you have to push them loud and pull a good amount of voltage with the tube recto engaged. The sag is easier to hear and feel in hot amps like the Orange AD30 and Vox AC30 which saturate early due to low wattage power tubes and pull a lot of power tube distortion because of this. Mesa Rectos have a pretty cold bias and are very hard to pull power tube distortion out of at reasonable volumes, as they are mainly getting their distortion from their preamp section, giving their distinct, signature sound.

Gone Fission wrote:Even the classic Oranges are pretty gainy and aren't really in the spectrum I would think of for a clean pedal platform -- there's an extra gain stage relative to a plexi Marshall. All the same, the ORs and ODs are less gain oriented than the Terror series stuff, Rockverb, and so forth. If the other current OR's are like the 15, you will have to go back to an earlier reissue or vintage for cleaner. (I half wonder about putting a circuit board in a TT with a full tone-stack with set-and-forget trimmers to shape the tone and suck up some of the gain.)

One thing to consider is that a lot of fuzz players have issues with EL-84 amps. If you aren't looking for that specific output tube tone, 6V6, 6L6, EL-34, 6550, and KT-88's will all deliver more and cleaner bass than EL-84s, which goes a long way for playing well with modern fuzzes. Keep in mind that many of the classic fuzz-into-Vox sounds relied on bass-shy fuzzes and stuff not as gainy as a Big Muff. You want to run heavy dirt into an AC-30, try the normal or trem input and skip the top-boost if you don't want to mush out. Big Muff (which is what a Hoof is) wants a loud clean amp where a Fuzz Face or Tonebender usually works best with an amp that's at least a couple ticks into dirt already.

For Muff, the amps I'd think about are non-master Marshalls, Hiwatts (Custom models more than Lead), Sunn, Ampeg. Maybe blackface or silverface Fenders, but that can lead to maybe too much mid-scoop all at once. That's not to exclude more affordable and recent stuff, but I'd be thinking in that sort of vein.

Lots of truth in this here statement.

Orange amps are more about imparting their own unique tone than providing big fat cleans usually associated with a good pedal platform amp. As for the reissue OR50 being similar to the OR15, I don't think they sound anything alike, more of a marketing ploy and opportunity to use the "Pics Only" faceplate on one of the baby Oranges. The current OR50 is way less gainy and has that unique HF Drive control but it still doesn't sound like the vintage OR stuff. Still, it's way closer than the OR15 but wouldn't be my choice for a pedal amp.

As for tubes, I haven't had any glaring issues with fuzz and the EL84 OR15 but that's because I mainly use the amp dirt, sounds so good on it's own. Fuzz is hit or miss, like any amp, but Oranges seem to be better off when running 'em on their own for the dirt then maybe boosting to get a little more growl or whatever.

My pedal platform amps are my Dunwich Metro (2xKT88) and Ampeg GVT15 (2x6V6). Both deliver big, booming cleans that just beg to be ravished by fuzz/dirt. The Dunwich was specifically designed for pedals and I can't find anything it doesn't like, astonishing really, love that goddamn amp. Totally sold me on KT88s, probably my favorite tube EVAR!

If you want big fat cleans from a newer Orange amp.... Get an AD200B. I used one for guitar for a long long time and it loves pedals and sounds amazing, all while being louder then necessary.

guys, thank you so much for all of this info
i definitely have some things to ponder about now.

as i said my fender concert reverb is doing a pretty good job (although i do need to replace the tubes in a couple of months)
but i wanted to see what else was out there
and to communarchy, i unfortunately do not have my hoof anymore. i ended up replacing it with a blunderbuss which i really love
but i also miss my hoof now that i've brought it up, i'll have to pick one up again soon.

Communarchy wrote:I guess to clarify, what I mean is the tightness of the bass attack and response. The Mesa solid state diode/tube rectifier switching amps, at very high saturation and volume, will have a sag and bloom in the bass response, but you have to push them loud and pull a good amount of voltage with the tube recto engaged. The sag is easier to hear and feel in hot amps like the Orange AD30 and Vox AC30 which saturate early due to low wattage power tubes and pull a lot of power tube distortion because of this. Mesa Rectos have a pretty cold bias and are very hard to pull power tube distortion out of at reasonable volumes, as they are mainly getting their distortion from their preamp section, giving their distinct, signature sound.

Dude, it was an Example. Sorry, but your idea fits not for all amps.

Dude bro
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Not tryin to harsh on ya. I don't think I said anything that wasn't true. I've owned all of the amps we have mentioned, and the dual recto does have sag when you push it hard while on tube rectification. I mean that's kind of the point of giving you the option of choosing both styles of voltage rectification. Some people like that sound.

I don't know if the TH30 is far off from the TH100 or exactly the same but less watts.... but the TH100 was the biggest disappointment in an amp I've ever encountered. My friend bought one, first of all, it was $1500.... you can get so many cooler amps then that for $1500.. and to me it was just doing that whole high gain 5150 thing. Sounded AWFUL.