Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the modulator masses

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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by lordgalvar »

jwar wrote:
Chankgeez wrote:Dude, it's rare. :idk:
I've owned one of these what 3 times maybe? It's not a standard ring mod or even close to it. LOL! In fact, it doesn't even do really a ring mod sound that I could discern. So I'm not sure how the fuck it's classified as one. I mean, I guess it does some the squeally high pitched ring modish tones, but they sound god awful to me.
Totally agree with you on that one. Pretty sure the ring mod is just everything smashed together at a high gain stage tube. Kinda like running a raptio with 50/50 wet/dry into a superfuzz or something. Kinda sounds ring mod sometimes, but yea. It isn't even that fun (and of course criticizing it, I feel like that is his marketing "It is supposed to sound bad").

I dunno. Torn on it. The problems outweigh the benefits. It's cool (and I really like the idea/aesthetic/concept/weird design), but it is more like a fancy distortion for synthy people.
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by crochambeau »

I'd be curious as to how the TM-1 differs from this published Eric Barbour circuit: http://www.cgs.synth.net/tube/beam.html
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by Inconuucl »

https://www.facebook.com/subdecaystudio ... =3&theater

I can't wait to hear the changes. :snax: Hopefully they fixed the carrier bleed from the first one.
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by Chankgeez »

Inconuucl wrote: https://www.facebook.com/subdecaystudio ... =3&theater

I can't wait to hear the changes. :snax: Hopefully they fixed the carrier bleed from the first one.

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Looks positively Vitruvian! :snax:
psychic vampire. wrote:The important take away from this thread: Taoism and Ring Modulators go together?
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by lordgalvar »

crochambeau wrote:I'd be curious as to how the TM-1 differs from this published Eric Barbour circuit: http://www.cgs.synth.net/tube/beam.html
Eric Barbour wrote:This circuit requires a fairly "hot" signal, as it is not really an amplifier in the usual sense. I recommend at least 10v p-p
That is I think at least part of the problem. There is constant balance issues. The carrier oscillator in the TM-1 is transistor based if I remember correctly from poking around.

There are two versions of the TM-1: the early version has a switch to "activate ring mod" and the second has a volume pot for the ring mod. Both had three tubes inside.

The carrier oscillator is about in the DBA Space Ring range (I'd say 2000hz max maybe to like 100 hz maybe...just a guess based on ear and memory). If I remember correctly, there was the Beam Grid tube mentioned in the article above that was the wave shaping (beam grid stuff). There was a 12ax7 too I think (probably a amp stage). In the manual, there was a line that states if using with a guitar or other lower output source that it would need to be amplified the heck out of to get the most out of the TM-1 and suggested a digital preamp for best results.

Functionally, they are just very hard to use from a guitar standpoint (or even as just a normal processor). Kinda seemed like the whole setup needed to be prepared specifically for the TM-1 to run it to its full potential. I also think that a guitar signal might not be diverse enough to get the most out of the waveshaper (in most circumstances).
Eric Barbour wrote:By varying the screen voltage between the plate supply voltage and the actual plate idle voltage, drift effects take over, and the peaks of the waveform start to fold over on themselves. Moreover, this folding is not sharp, as in the famed Serge "waveshaper" circuit of the 1970s. It also happens on top of the modulation, causing some very strange and distinctive effects.By varying the screen voltage between the plate supply voltage and the actual plate idle voltage, drift effects take over, and the peaks of the waveform start to fold over on themselves. Moreover, this folding is not sharp, as in the famed Serge "waveshaper" circuit of the 1970s. It also happens on top of the modulation, causing some very strange and distinctive effects.
I think that is a good way to describe the TM-1. This circuit is probably just the front end of the TM-1. There is a "functional" range to the waveshaper controls that are most effective when in the around 10% range marked near the pots. Outside of those ranges, it is kind of just a distortion.

The combination of the two circuits probably work well with really hot, diverse signals where the changes are less subtle to the ear. It also felt like the waveshaper was important to just get the signal prepared for the modulation stage. Like, can't have one without the other.
Eric Barbour wrote:giving a very good ring modulator effect, with reasonable carrier suppression (provided the input and modulation signals were fairly high in peak voltage). So far, this sounds similar to the differential-amp balanced modulator seen in IC form.
The push pull between the two deflection plates is acting like two gates switching (in this guy's ignorant terms, I guess) between two signals. Then they go to an amplification stage I guess (which is the 12ax7) which is probably why I hear the sound "raptio into superfuzz". So the modulation is actually controlled by a kind of sort of outside clock (ac push pull) instead of opening based on amplitude of the incoming waveforms. It is kinda like switching back and forth really fast with a relay or transistor switch (right?). I dunno. It just feels and sounds different overall to me.

It is probably better in a oscillator/synth/modulator setup than guitar.

But, ramble, ramble, ramble...yea, those circuits are in the TM-1 plus a gain stage/amp at the end (or somewheres) as far as I can tell.

Or, I'm an idiot haha. Just looking at things the way they make sense to me. I guess ic based balanced ain't that much difference in theory to an ac push pull switching setup probably.
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by Jwar »

lordgalvar wrote:
jwar wrote:
Chankgeez wrote:Dude, it's rare. :idk:
I've owned one of these what 3 times maybe? It's not a standard ring mod or even close to it. LOL! In fact, it doesn't even do really a ring mod sound that I could discern. So I'm not sure how the fuck it's classified as one. I mean, I guess it does some the squeally high pitched ring modish tones, but they sound god awful to me.
Totally agree with you on that one. Pretty sure the ring mod is just everything smashed together at a high gain stage tube. Kinda like running a raptio with 50/50 wet/dry into a superfuzz or something. Kinda sounds ring mod sometimes, but yea. It isn't even that fun (and of course criticizing it, I feel like that is his marketing "It is supposed to sound bad").

I dunno. Torn on it. The problems outweigh the benefits. It's cool (and I really like the idea/aesthetic/concept/weird design), but it is more like a fancy distortion for synthy people.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fun ass pedal but IMO it's the weakest of the TM lot. I really loved the TM 5 and regret selling it so bad. Ugh.


If I could I'd buy this but I don't want it for that price. They go for around 200 all day long on eBay it seems. At least that's what they were last year.
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by Chankgeez »

psychic vampire. wrote:The important take away from this thread: Taoism and Ring Modulators go together?
…...........................…
Sweet dealin's: here
"Now, of course, Strega is not a Minimoog… and I am not Sun Ra" - dude from MAKENOISE
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by Chankgeez »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KEnEgpDR0E[/youtube]
psychic vampire. wrote:The important take away from this thread: Taoism and Ring Modulators go together?
…...........................…
Sweet dealin's: here
"Now, of course, Strega is not a Minimoog… and I am not Sun Ra" - dude from MAKENOISE
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by Dandolin »

What's up with this?

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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by D.o.S. »

I kind of want a ring mod.
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by Chankgeez »

Yes, you do.

… and, now, I wanna Moog with purple switches. :snax:
psychic vampire. wrote:The important take away from this thread: Taoism and Ring Modulators go together?
…...........................…
Sweet dealin's: here
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by Dandolin »

Purple switches. One more small indication of the slow, incremental forward creep of human civilization.
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by kbit »

I think Randy might be my next big pedal purchase. In reading other threads I saw v1 potentially has less range on the carrier oscillator. I'd wanna use it for tremolo sometimes and while super slow speed isn't necessary for me I am curious if anyone has knowledge of the difference between the range on v1 & v2?
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by Dandolin »

kbit wrote:I think Randy might be my next big pedal purchase. In reading other threads I saw v1 potentially has less range on the carrier oscillator. I'd wanna use it for tremolo sometimes and while super slow speed isn't necessary for me I am curious if anyone has knowledge of the difference between the range on v1 & v2?
I have RR v1 and I feel like it works beautifully as a syrupy tremolo--there's almost a hint of filter in there, like a harmonic tremolo. As far as how slow do he go--slow enough that I never wanted slower. I mean, I don't remember setting it to "so slow it's more like an annoyingly persistent Slow Gear" but it operated well within the range of tremolo speeds I would normally seek out.

On the high end of the range I'm always looking for more; be interested to know myself if v.2 goes higher/faster, but I don't think there's any way I would trade in my v.1 just to get a v. 2. Now, if they upped the tricksy factor on a v.3, that might do it. But within the limits of what it is--a very smooth, not-too-bright or crispy sounding ring mod with excellent bell tones, rich syrupy trem and the ability to modulate the carrier a bit? I am fulfilled. In fact, it does those things so well, I'd prefer to seek out something that zags the other way rather than any upgraded RR....
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Re: Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the masses

Post by lordgalvar »

The blend is different on v1 and v2 of the RR. The v1 always seemed to have hints of original signal in there. The range seem about the same. V1 seemed a little more "warm" but it could have been component variation or just me "warmly" remembering things. There is somebody around here with both....

Is the purple mf102 yours, dandolin?

The mf102 does have some variance too. I have a newest version (that I blew up being an idiot...all power supplies are labeled now) and an early moog version (not big briar). The newer one seemed louder and the older one seems better built. I dunno. Haha.

What is the difference in the new subdecay? I'm not smart enough for that guy. (Thanks to a good friend for letting me try both RR v1 and the v1 subdecay).
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