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I think OP is leaving the question open ended to what you would describe as 'bad behavior'. That's why in my post above, I sort of annotated it.

One could template out an answer with starting if "you do" or "don't" let pedal builder behavior bother you. In either case you can explain why. I "you do" you can list the behavior, define the attribute you would give it, and say why you find this not agreeable.

@niftyprose, I'm trying here bud.

So these two pedal builders either make a political post about "I hate XYZ candidate" or "I hate this group of people" type thing?

I dislike politics in general, so these things turn me off.

I also don't have any respect for people who make "anti-gay" et. al posts

Are these ethical dilemmas? Not necessarily. People are free to express their opinions in a peaceful way. Saying, "I hate gay people" is different than "I disagree with such and such."

I kind of went off on a tangent but you get the jist of what I'm saying.

There are several pedal builders that I choose not to purchase their product due to the potential back end baggage associated with owning them.

I've been digesting this thread with intent to reply, and I must say the presentation of the conundrum has me crisscrossing my bald spot with scratch marks.

niftyprose wrote:I just didn't like the way those in question had treated a contemporary.

So, just so I am clear here: the aspect of behavior that has prompted you to be selective with your money (wholly understandable, and a universal trait as far as I know) is the manner in which a given builder has treated someone else. I'm assuming we're talking "peer" here (I did look up "contemporary" to confirm my interpretation of your statement and I must admit more questions were raised). Can I conclude that the context we're discussing is *confined* within the framework of professional conduct?

That is to say, are we discussing repercussions based on someone either dropping a project and leaving someone in the lurch, screwing someone out of cash or influence, or speaking disparagingly regarding claims or designs of a product line, consistently ignoring deadlines, etc..?

I've noticed that while barbs will sometimes surface, it is rare to see "the dirty laundry" exposed enough for me to, as "an innocent bystander" have enough information to go on to make any third party judgement in that realm, outside of breach of contract. The manner in which one/a firm carries themselves through this sort of thing is telling though, and I usually note that sort of thing...
...but if such turbulence is confined to the network through which one brings to fruition a product or design, I'll nod to myself in knowing that burning bridges that hold up your foundation rarely ends well, and any influence I can wield with my buying dollar isn't going to prevent or accelerate a crash.

That is to say, unless I get the impression someone is ripping someone else off (not paying for artwork, etc) or is otherwise a complete shitbag professional conduct doesn't really weigh in. There are, I realize, a lot of exceptions to what I just wrote... but the manner in which competing bodies spar upon the battlefield of commerce isn't the biggest ethics flag for me.

I'm a builder, so I have a very biased opinion of such things. I've also seen other builders get riled up over stupid shit.

Generally speaking, when someone gets riled up about stupid shit or likes to throw their weight around in a better than thou manner, I get the distinct impression that I wouldn't have my socks blown off by whatever they are peddling in the first place. Cool shit does not need gusto or parlor tricks to convince someone to part with their cash.

It's a tense vocation, and sometimes that results in someone acting a shithead while in a corner. It's handy to be able to see/understand that. I guess without more defined context that's the best answer I can come up with.

I will say that if this was me, in that the acting shithead builder was me and this affected my operation I'd want to know about it. I generally don't see myself as a shit flinger (my business model does not "interference fit" my contemporaries as far as I can tell, so the need to fling shit has never come up) but I'd want to know just the same.

Sorry for causing so much headscratching. I was thinking out loud -- "what do I do with this specialist knowledge from ILF?" -- and don't think I made it very easy for others to chip in. As you were... NP.

No problem. It's just a pretty wide subject. Cloning, sketchy business ethics, political bias, crazy worldviews, offensive language, religious stuff - there are a lot of factors that may affect how we view a builder (or any business, really), and I think arguments will be different depending on the specific case. But in general, go with what you believe.

niftyprose wrote:Sorry for causing so much headscratching. I was thinking out loud -- "what do I do with this specialist knowledge from ILF?" -- and don't think I made it very easy for others to chip in. As you were... NP.

Just saying, I thought what your wrote made sense. It was more of a prompt than a question which is good for threads.

This isn't an ethical thing but two of the builders I absolutely refuse to buy from just gave really bad timing expectations. If you say 4-6 weeks, I'm reaching out to you 8-12 months later, for a product that is not custom (something advertised in their line and readily made products)... that's a huge problem in my book. Like... I could have bought what I was going to get off reverb, for like 20% off and with two day shipping instead.

I've made that mistake too many times though hence my "no pre-order" policy. If it can't ship that week, I don't want it. Please note, no ILF builder has been a let down as far as pre-orders go though. It's just something I won't do anymore.

To be honest I do not look at the ethics of a pedal company very closely. I used to. That was before I realized the entire world is a heaping pile of garbage and that 90% of human beings suck no matter what career they are in.


So there’s my answer.

Reading this thread, I realized that I'm actually more forgiving (or maybe more willfully ignorant) of corporate companies than I am of small builders. I don't buy a lot of new pedals to begin with, but if I've heard credible sounding bad shit about a single dude building pedals, I'm most likely going to write him off. Whereas I choose to imagine that the Chinese factories churning out affordable pedals for the big names (or the big cloners, for that matter) are run totally in line with my own sense of justice and ethics.

Not saying this is right. Literally just had this realization about myself; commence ethical hand-wringing in 3...2...1...

i absolutely avoid builders with a reputation for endless delays. if i want something, i want it in a reasonable time frame. a rep for poor build quality also disqualifies, especially if i've seen it personally (Death By Audio). i can be fairly doctrinaire about political complaint, but not so much that i wouldn't buy a used Colourbox. in general, i try to avoid giving my money to people i wouldn't want to be sharing things with.

Here’s an ethical question. Why do some builders pretend to care about the world and continue to buy their wares and supply from Chinese companies that are destroying our planet? Anyone know of any companies that have boycotted buying slave made items?

Oh and I realize that’s a sweeping over simplification of things but I don’t fucking care anymore.

Jwar wrote:Oh and I realize that’s a sweeping over simplification of things but I don’t fucking care anymore.

Every ting gunna b o.k. mist'a jwar.

the problem is, it's getting harder and harder to find anything that *wasn't* made in China. e.g. it's quite difficult to find camping/backpacking tents made anywhere else.

Well, tbh, we are already almost 20 years deep into "the Chinese century" so it is quite useless indeed to boycott China! By the time you read this, countless evils will have been perpetrated both here and abroad. An example: The Triangle Shirt Waste Fire of 1911 - we now consider this slave. However, at the time, it was regular. That's why it's relative, first of all, second of all, hating on China or Chinese products makes no sense. So much to say, there's no way to restore America to it's hay day of manufacturing or whatever. Or whatever is right! Think for a moment of the rich who can actually afford to buy artisan everything... well that removes them from having to make difficult choices. However, if you are a regular (like myself) you do not have enough money to buy U.S. manufactured bespoke tents or camping gear and have to resort to the Global Economy... hardly a sin in these troubled times. For Christ's sake how much would my sneakers cost if I bought bespoke U.S. sneakers? Hundreds. This is why I prefer Canadian pedals... industrialectric, Montreal Assembly, etc. The Echo Degrader is definitely the most ethical pedal because it degrades my personal signals as I am guilty of many, many sins including not believing in anthropogenic global warming.