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crochambeau wrote:

friendship wrote:When it comes to CC messages, is that limited by the unit I'm trying to control, or the controller itself? In other words, do I need a delay rack that has enough CC channels? I've never really set up MIDI hardware more complex than a keyboard controller for my computer.

MIDI is a very rudimentary language. Control change function is somewhat set in stone regardless of what you are using. There are 128 standard CC voices that can speak on a given MIDI channel, and to my knowledge each CC command is limited to 128 steps. The list is linked below:

http://nickfever.com/music/midi-cc-list

Generally speaking, most modern rack multi-effects should allow you to exploit CC, either listing what address a given parameter responds to in the manual, or allowing you to change that address. Controllers will allow you to change the address their end as well. Once you line everything up, you're good to go - but usually there is menu diving involved which can be a turn-off. Once that is set up it should just turn on and play. I've operated an archaic Digitech DSP128+ (late 1980s I believe) in this manner with a JL Cooper Fadermaster (same era), and while the Digitech offers surprisingly deep control over a reverb engine and also has a multitap delay, modulation is limited and you cannot stack effects. The sound quality is also decidedly lofi.

Beyond the standard CC map comes sysex (system exclusive) which is where you find a MIDI controller made by a company that only works with one or two of their own devices (see Roland PG series controller). DRodriguez mentioned Eventide H series, in the H3000 some of the effect parameter settings are vastly deeper than 128 steps, so control with a standard MIDI CC limitations will either produce very noticeable stair stepping or limit a parameter change to a sliver of what is available. Eventide touches upon that here:

https://www.eventideaudio.com/support/d ... modulation

TL;DR I'd google "(your device) midi controller" and see if it returns a lot of horror stories or not.

This is all really helpful information, thank you so much! I don't mind menu diving as long as doing so gets me to where I can control it with my hands. If I understand right, I have to set my controller to point each knob/slider/whatever to the CC channel corresponding to the parameter I want it to control on the effects unit, is that right? Sounds like I can start with a MIDI control surface to fux with my plugins until I decide on a rack unit.

The Vortex is great but tragically it lacks MIDI. It's a shame because if I could control more than one (ok two with expression pedal) parameters at once I would shit my butt.

friendship wrote:If I understand right, I have to set my controller to point each knob/slider/whatever to the CC channel corresponding to the parameter I want it to control on the effects unit, is that right? Sounds like I can start with a MIDI control surface to fux with my plugins until I decide on a rack unit.

Correct, the MIDI controller should also allow you to limit the range of output at any given knob/slider/whatever, so that if the effect algorithm only has 10 settings for a particular parameter, you're not stuck having to finesse changes with 7% of your travel.

I'd like to speculate about changes and improvements that may have surfaced in the last 20 years, but my only MIDI CC controller is over 25 years old... and it works fine for this sort of thing.

spacelordmother wrote:Would it work to be able to modulate all of these parameters in real time?



And these are only 2 objects of thousands.

Axoloti is less than $80 USD. You would have to build/customize an enclosure and wire up your knobs, but it's not too much effort to get it up and running... despite how Invisible Man and I make it seem.

Edit to add that anything/everything is also mappable to midi so you wouldn't even need to futz with an enclosure or kmobs if you didn't want to.

Seconded. Hardware is not difficult is you have some time. Limitless possibility. Cheap.

The thing with old+cheap is it won't be friendly. It won't be happy. You're not going to get 200 algos. What's adjustable via CC may or not sound good (or useful for what you're doing *while* you're doing it), etc.

Vortex has *no* MIDI, it was designed to try and be "accessible" and has no diving either - it's "turn a knob to adjust a setting, once you've selected it on the face, hope for the best." The real-time fun on the Vortex though is the ability to morph between two patches (that do NOT have to be the same algo) with expression or equivalent. I've got mine running with LFO-controlled faux expression on the ES-8 and it does things my feet couldn't even if they worked right!

For knobs and real-time stuff you want more primitive, first-wave rack stuff - the Boss DD-300, the Digitech RDS delays (that are basically higher headroom, CV time controllable versions of the now stupid expensive PDS pedals with a ton more routing), etc. They'll do one thing, and one thing stupidly well, but that's all they do.

Should also note that the vast, vast majority of older rack units also aren't *true* stereo - they'll sum at input, if they have stereo inputs at all. Outputs will be as described per-algo.

Basically, what neat cheap stuff like the Vortex or Quadraverb+ are good for is "set up a few patches, know what they do, and be able to use them like brushes." They're not hands-on units but part of the price reflects that (as well as the idea that you'd just make a patch for each particular sound you wanted, it's why they have dozens or hundreds on most of the preset-based units).

Finally, be aware that a lot of the units will require a certain amount of maintenance when you get them (and periodically thereafter) - they'll have internal batteries of some type or another that can go a decade or more sometimes without being changed, but other times....you're swapping them every year or two. This is particularly bitchy on some of the units, as they're not just simple "swap in a CR2022 coin battery and close it back up" - some require soldering, some require specialty replacements.

And almost ALL of them benefit from swapping the LCD panel if you want it to be readable by modern standards. The best $$ I ever spent on my Quadraverb+ was replacing the dull factory LCD (which was dismal when it was new, let alone 25 years later) was putting in a modern backlit blue/white one that I can actually read with old people eyes from a ways away. On some units, it's a simple replacement, others, bitchy disassembly and resoldering.

Don't get me wrong, none need the maintenance of a tape echo, but...chances are the units you're going to find have been neglected and/or abused.

Man that Axoloti looks extremely powerful. I have a lot of experience "programming" virtual modular stuff in Reason and this doesn't look that dissimilar. I have zero experience building enclosures but since it's MIDI mappable, maybe I can work with that first by using a MIDI controller to mess with the things I've built and routing audio through the hardware.

So maybe the first thing to do is to get a really solid MIDI control surface and start using it with the plugins I have. I guess it doesn't really matter if my reverb/delay engines are in my computer vs a standalone rack in this scenario, especially considering rfurtkamp's comments about their longevity and potential CC wonkiness. Then if I'm feeling saucy I can use the same MIDI surface to mess with an Axoloti if I decide to go down that path (which is sounding very enticing considering how much fun I have building stuff in Reason).

I just dislike slapping an effect on a track and leaving it there. I have a lot more fun "playing" the effect while mixing down.

Then you're barking up the right tree.

And you don't absolutely have to have an enclosure, thought it's obviously a good idea. All of my hardware is installed in an enclosure and the pcb is just kinda hanging by leads while I troubleshoot. I do not endorse MIDI, but that's because of my own deficiencies.

Also: what you don't see in that screengrab from SLM is that each of those virtual 'knobs' is a possible modulation destination. So if you wanted to control some via envelopes/lfos/whatever you can think of, you could do that, too. I should point out that the TSG object is the best reverb I've played, too, not that I'm a 'quality' snob. I'm sure you'd be fine if you've worked in Reason. The more people we get on board, the stronger the user base gets. POWER TO THE PEOPLE

friendship wrote:I like character and I prefer frugality. What do I need?

A Happy Ending Kit is 3 rack spaces and can power 10 modules. For a delay and reverb-focused row of eurorack, you can get inexpensive ($100-$200) reverb and delay modules that are very small and have CV control over various parameters (WMD, Synthrotek, Erica Synths, Doepfer, Intellijel, 2HP, etc). Having a bunch of small ones is fun because of all the different ways they can be stacked and mixed. The rest of the rack space can be filled with various character-packed control modules, like a multi LFO or two (Wogglebug, Maths) and maybe a small sequencer to use on the pitch-shifting delays, and on Clouds.

I promise I'll shut up about this (OK I won't) but there's a MI Clouds object in axoloti (called 'clds'). Also: elements, rings, warps, &c.

friendship wrote:Man that Axoloti looks extremely powerful. I have a lot of experience "programming" virtual modular stuff in Reason and this doesn't look that dissimilar. I have zero experience building enclosures but since it's MIDI mappable, maybe I can work with that first by using a MIDI controller to mess with the things I've built and routing audio through the hardware.

So maybe the first thing to do is to get a really solid MIDI control surface and start using it with the plugins I have. I guess it doesn't really matter if my reverb/delay engines are in my computer vs a standalone rack in this scenario, especially considering rfurtkamp's comments about their longevity and potential CC wonkiness. Then if I'm feeling saucy I can use the same MIDI surface to mess with an Axoloti if I decide to go down that path (which is sounding very enticing considering how much fun I have building stuff in Reason).

I just dislike slapping an effect on a track and leaving it there. I have a lot more fun "playing" the effect while mixing down.

In case it's not clear from the Axoloti site -- the programming is done in the computer, but is sent to the board which can then be used standalone. You can even put patches on SD cards and change them on the fly. Any class-compliant USB midi device plugs in to the Axo's host port and works straightaway. Just have to create the input object and map the controls, either by mod input or right-clicking a dial.