Noob to pedal switchers. Hip me.

[popvulture]

I don't have a pedal switcher. But I've had some idle speculation about how a switcher that allows you
to change the pedal order might work with a delay or two (in trails mode) in line with a phrase looper
and other assorted noise makers and manglers. Especially if the switcher allowed for volume fades
between patches. Doesn't the Boss ES-8 allow for that?

The Boss indeed allows you to change order and save these instances as presets, which I believe is the only pedal switcher at this point that'll allow you to do this. Honestly I can't even tell you how fucking rad this would be, even for the simple recipe change of putting a reverb before a distortion in a patch, then being able to snap it back to its typical position in another patch. Not to mention of course delay into verb, trem, etc, having as much fun with that as you want.

In the end, that almost makes the Boss the most enticing out of all of em... the thing is though, I haven't heard a single thing about now that it's come out. I need to dig up some reviews and see what people think.

[PeteeBee]

The boss is tricky because it's so expensive. For 700 you can put together a pretty awesome little board. My limit for even considering these is about 200. Maybe 250

[goroth]

Ok.

Mine is a behemoth from Road Rage. It was custom ordered, and they were freaking excellent to deal with. But I think maybe they are only doing kits now. Whatever.
There are two main reasons why I didn't want a programmable looper: 1 being that I have a tendency to change which pedals turn up in a song as time goes, and I would rather be able to quickly experiment and test stuff, than have to edit patches. Related to that, I just couldn't get my head around an efficient workflow with patches - maybe Matthew can chime in - but for example, should I create patches that allow me to change sequentially through a song, or should I re-use certain combos, and in that case how would I deal with remembering what patch to skip to for a given song? With the way my looper is set up (more on that later) I get quick visual confirmation of exactly how the signal path is being routed.
The second reason is roadworthiness. This is absolutely NOT to say that other loopers aren't roadworthy, but again, if I am gigging and something doesn't work it is easy to diagnose the problem. Is it a specific loop y/n. Is it the looper as a whole (it has a master bypass). Can't solve it? Rip the input and output cables out, plug them in to the in/out of the Elements, do the rest of the gig with just clean/distortion. Then I know that either it is a bad cable, or the looper. Cable easy fix, looper easy fix. It's either a solder joint that's gone to shit, or a 3pdt switch that has died. Either one I can fix myself. And I suck at making pedals, but I can solder pretty decently. So I can fix that after the gig myself and then continue the next night. Not that my band as yet has had gigs on successive nights, but one can dream.

So that's why I chose the old school way.

As to the actual looper - it is really a result of years of iterations of my board and how I use my pedals. The way the looper is built, some of the loops are just regular on/off, then you hit the next stomp and you get the next loop, on/off. You know, a bunch of loops in series. But some of them are A/B loops and some of them are nested loops. For example, I have a loop that is the distortion loop. If I step on that switch I get distortion. Within that loop there is an A/B loop. The A loop is my main distortion (Elements, high gain), that I use for most everything. The B loop is at the moment a Mini and an Elements set to low gain. So that way I can go from clean to OD, or clean to high gain with one stomp (the A/B selector is beside the distortion on/off selector). Or I can go high gain to OD. Or if I know I'm looking for a clanky noise rock sort of OD I can stack the mini and the low gain elements. All of this can be done with minimal tap dancing. I've got a post distortion loop and a pre distortion loop. This was a legacy from the days that I used to MXR 6 band EQs to shape my distortion (crank mids and cut bass on the way in, compensate with more bass and judicious roll off of high frequencies on the way out). But I don't do that anymore, and instead I've got a Radio Deluxe post distortion and an octave up pedal pre distortion. I don't like octave up without distortion, and I don't really use the radio deluxe without some od or distortion, so it works perfectly that way. the pre and post loops don't have switches on the switcher - they are automatically selected when I step on the "distortion master" switch. If I'm already in distorted mode I can just stomp on either the octave thing or the Radio Deluxe and it's good to go, but if I want to go back to clean I can without having to worry about turning off 3 pedals in 3 different places. And in the off chance that I'd actually want to use either of those pedals clean I can just turn off the distortion.

The rest of the loops are set up as "channels" - there is a modulation loop after the distortion where I put chorus and phaser and bit crushing and stuff, and a delay loop after where I have delays and post delay dirt/clean boost. Before the distortion I have my "synthy" effects like a Ct5 and stuff.

Before each song I select all the pedals I'm going to use for that song, and for the most part I don't have to tap dance too much during the actual song - it's all controlled by the looper. When I'm learning a new set list I'll make a set list of pedal changes so that I can practise turning off the previous song's pedals and selecting the next song's pedals as quick as I can. Seeing as I'm singing I'll usually do this while I drink some water, or while I tune my guitar (keep my eye on the tuner and stomp pedals at the same time).

I'll make a diagram and it'll make more sense. Will do that after the rugrats go to bed.

In any case - I have no idea why dudes go and by 15 loop true bypass strips and then run one pedal in each loop. All it does is shift the tap dancing down to your switcher instead of your board. But it is still going to lead to stupid silences and fuckups when you play live. Using it more like channels, and by working out exactly how you use your pedals you can do extremely complicated stuff without much moving of your foot at all. Sometimes, not very often, but sometimes, I can't get a change right - maybe it'll require two stomps and I can't get them done in time, or I can't watch what I'm stomping on and sing and play at the same time. In that case I'll usually sit down and try and find an alternative sound for that part. And in general I've built my board so that I don't have to do that (I don't want to be restricted in that way) but it happens so seldom that it is almost like a fun puzzle to sit down and rethink the soundscape for a given part of a song.

I've got about a million fricking demos that I want to record, but eventually I'll get around to demoing a whole song and showing how the pedal board works. Probably won't be for a month or two. Or three. Or ever. But I'm pretty keen because I really like my set up.

But I really want to underline that this works so well because I have a PT-Pro that gives me lots of options, and I know how I like to use my effects. I'd be a much less enthusiastic supporter if I didn't have the space to throw on another reverb just to have pre-dirt, or if I liked messing around with my signal chain a lot (I dunno, maybe someone likes having chorus before distortion...). So unless you have a very clear idea of how you use stuff then perhaps a digital switcher is a better solution.

Pictures to come...

[popvulture]

Yes, dude! Sick! Definitely would love to see some pics!

I agree with you that it seems pretty redundant to just set up individual pedals in each loop if you're using a standard loop switcher. I've often thought about going that route and dividing things up into sensible groups/channels, as you've done. I'd figure out which pedals I often use together, put them in a loop, then of course would have the option to individually kick off each pedal within the loop if I wanted to.

Obviously a digital switcher with presets and possibly reassignable order would be the best situation to put one, maybe two pedals in each loop—that way you just do all of the grouping in the presets.

I feel like I really should try to tackle this realm of my setup. Even if something like the ES-8 seems expensive, I could easily get there by not arbitrarily buying a few other boutique-priced pedals, as I most certainly would do if left to my own devices. The thing is—I currently really have plenty of great pedals at this point, and though I sure would love another fuzz or a Scrutator or something, I should probably think a little more rationally and try not to gild the lily.

[Seance]

Ok.
(......................)
Pictures to come...

Okay. So why didn't you want to type all of that into a cellphone?
Are you lazy or something? I mean first you refuse to do your
daily aerobic pedal-tap dancing exercises and now you don't
want to type in a well-thought out and thorough explication
of your pedal process on the squished little keys of your cellphone?






Seriously.
Nice to hear such a thorough break down of what you use
and why and how. Pictures would also help my feeble
brain comprehend the flow. Once people start talking
in multi loops it sends my brains in a loop de loop.

[popvulture]

^^^ Very much agreed. Really helpful post, goroth.

[karmablock]

Has anyone tried this out?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKhdrYQu3Yc[/youtube]

[rfurtkamp]

I want the Boss one hardcore. It's on my top top contenders for "next big purchase" when my Gibby 339 is paid off in the spring.

It does *Everything* want and has enough routing to make me happy (since realistically there's a few fuzzes I never want to switch the specific suborder on, I can get away with more than 8 in the unit mapped out). Programming looks easy from the manual/demos, and if I was still gigworthy I'd have bought one already fuck more guitars.

The reason you don't hear much about them is the same reason people don't talk about multi-fx or more complicated units: by and large, the userbase here isn't a programming bunch.

As much as doing something like an Arduino thing isn't a bad idea, let's be realistic - unless you're trying to manufacture them or have a grand desire to program, it's better to toss out a few extra bills and just buy something with (a) resale (b) that works out of the box.

[popvulture]

Yeah for sure—I like the idea of some kind of DIY thing, and learning how to do Arduino stuff is super enticing. That said, I've got a ton of stuff I'm already bogged down trying to learn (improving my Ableton skills, Max, new Reaktor, Cinema 4D for work stuff), not to mention the usual reading too many books at once and going down new music-listening wormholes daily, my omnivorous (more like really ADD) brain can't take on any more big projects.

Plus I don't mind spending some money on someone else's R&D, because you're going to pay for it one way or another, whether it's money or time.

The Boss is solidifying as the best choice for me. I think more than anything I just really wanna hear some comments about its signal path quality. It's probably great, just would like some experiences...

[goroth]

Boss is untouchable.

Their engineers are great, and with their more complicated gear they've been on a massive roll lately.

Never heard or played their switcher but it is no doubt rad.

Here's a scale diagram of my looper with what all the buttons do.

looper.png (55.08 KiB) Viewed 549 times

Here's an old incarnation of my board - not sure if I even ended up building it this way, but the coloured blocks indicate what pedals belonged in what loop.

loops old.png (92.38 KiB) Viewed 549 times

And an older incarnation

loops older.png (99.75 KiB) Viewed 549 times

I'm gullible enough to always think that my current board has achieved its ultimate form (even as I plan future changes I still delude myself that it's finally finalised). But for example, in one of our new songs, I have a Mini doing the lofi drive thing going into Cosmichorus doing pitch vibrato going into a Hexe Revolver on auto glitch. By stepping on the "modulation switch" (second furthest from right) and the distortion A/B at the same time I can change at once to a "clean" brutal distortion. All the while I've got three delays stacked and ready for the verse, which I turn on with one tap.

I don't mean to sound like "look at all the cool shit I'm doing I'm going to name drop some pedlols, fucking nooobs". But it is however a good example for how the looper allows me to do stuff live that is super easy that would be impossible without it.

All of my set-up could be totally achieved with a digital unit, but I think it's kinda interesting how far you can push a very inflexible analogue solution.

[D.o.S.]

This thread hurts my brain.

[lordgalvar]

Agreed that Boss makes really nice stuff that works well. That is really well thought out and awesome goroth!

I guess where I am coming from on the DIY front (like I mention in the limiter/compressor/noise thread) is that I intend to do routing switching, parallel/series switching, attenuation/boosting, mixing, and possible addition of trails/fade out switching from one three loop switcher. I probably am overthinking it like usual.

But I already have a CV control switcher/router/feedbacker...I guess I just think too much and don't ever want to accept what "is" haha.

[popvulture]

Hahaha, I'm an overthinker as well. But if you can do that shit, I say by all means go forth! I'd just be starting from zero pretty much, so I guess at the end of the day I'm just too impatient.

[behndy]

jia. i used to have the problem of OH SHIT YOU CAN DO THAT I AM MAKING SURE I CAN DO THAT..... even if it didn't really work for me. i had an OmLabs intelligent switcher for a bit. if i was gigging the same songs all the time, i would do that again. but it killed any spontaneity for coming up with pedal combo sounds.

all that is just for me, Goroth has one of the most intelligent and well thought out approaches to pedal control i've ever seen.

AMAZEBALLS GOOD.

[Pete]

This thread hurts my brain.

same here.