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Basically from what I understand you want punch and attack, you want to retain it, I'm exactly in that same camp so there's a few things I can say about it.
Personally I wouldn't use a compressor at all and you need a really good and dynamic (tube) amp, I don't know what you're using now?
A Rat has too much compression in my opinion, it's not bad but it doesn't retain the punch and attack as much as some other (I think better) pedals.
This is all just my experience and opinion though.

The best pedals I've tried for this type of thing so far are:
Homebrew Electronics Big D
Fulltone OCD
Weehbo JCM Drive
Zvex Box Of Rock

If you like it a bit more modern you could also try these:
Barber Direct Drive
Bogner Blue
Vahlbruch Sapphire Drive, Jewel Drive

I'd consider really basic boosters, too. Stuff like the Super Hard On, Emerson thingy, AMZ boost. Most of this stuff is known circuits easy and cheap to DIY--tagboardeffects.blogspot.com is your friend. Also, eq pedal as boost/sculpting agent. A little front end push might be enough to get the right amp channel to the right place for those sounds.

Doctor X wrote:what settings you using on the elements and mini?
because i would have thought that those 2 and the fairfield barbershop were the perfect drives to use, into clean amps.

i would say try either fairfield barbershop, or elements with clipping toggle centre/low gain toggle/maybe slight bass clipping depending on eqs/setup.
and/or mini with the bias at full clockwise (or backing it off till sweetspot), with the bass a little rolled off (about 2, depending on guitar/amp etc)

elements i use the clipping toggle centre, bass cut with bass knob turned up to compensate (without the bass cut in place its not tight), high gain mode with the knob around noon, mids boosted quite a bit since it seems not very punchy otherwise.
mini i have the bias just below noon, gain/treble ~1:30, bass ~11. i'll try tweaking them, the mini has never sounded particularly 'punchy' to me, i use it generally with slower playing but i might just be setting it wrong.

Gone Fission wrote:I'd consider really basic boosters, too. Stuff like the Super Hard On, Emerson thingy, AMZ boost. Most of this stuff is known circuits easy and cheap to DIY--tagboardeffects.blogspot.com is your friend. Also, eq pedal as boost/sculpting agent. A little front end push might be enough to get the right amp channel to the right place for those sounds.

i have a LAL Angel Ring boost which is basic and loud, its close and most 'natural' sounding that retains the single coil character but the sound gets a little farty once a bit of boost is happening.

Tristan wrote:Basically from what I understand you want punch and attack, you want to retain it, I'm exactly in that same camp so there's a few things I can say about it.
Personally I wouldn't use a compressor at all and you need a really good and dynamic (tube) amp, I don't know what you're using now?
A Rat has too much compression in my opinion, it's not bad but it doesn't retain the punch and attack as much as some other (I think better) pedals.
This is all just my experience and opinion though.

i'm using a Marshall DSL50 right now, which i like because it's quite warm and clear-sounding, but i don't really like the way it responds when the front end is slammed, i use pedals for dirt and set them not too far above unity.
a lot of it comes down to that, and also possibly because i'm using a cab with greenbacks which are low wattage speakers, but i'm not sure if that would be contributing before it gets to a pretty high volume.
down the line i'll get another amp, probably a Rivera because i played their 100w bassman hot rod and it was the punchiest, most sparkly amp i've ever tried, but I can't justify the expense for a while so i'm just gonna work on my dirt section for the time being.

thanks for all the suggestions dudes, i guess i have some youtube stalking to do!

I think if you want this sound you should just crank a tube amp. Pedals will get you close but this will be a lot better.

Those bands are rad. Lite is the shit, phantasia is one of my all time fav albums. Okay, that's a stretch, but as far as instrumental mathrock goes, it's way up there:)
My old band opened for them years ago, and when I saw em again not too long ago I got a good peek at their gear. Surpirse surprise, the floor wasn't covered with ss/bs, eqd, lal, mid-fi, dwarfcraft, dr scientist...etc

Boss, mxr, line6...And Schecter fender copies:)

It's not the easiest genre to pull off, especially live, without sounding messy, sloppy, muddy, etc. Lots of different and complicated stuff going on, weird timing, stuttery choppy rhythms.

They were insanely tight though, I just stood there the whole time watching them with my mouth half open like a dumbass. Props to the sound guy too I guess.
Imo it jsut comes down to technique. Skills, practice, talent,...

I've been into this sorta of music for the better part of the last decade, and I've bought and sold more amps, guitars and effects than I care to remember. Your base tone has to be just right, but for me personally that's easily found in a mid range fender guitar and a decent tube amp. An old Marshall JMP, or similar, will do. Hell, any fender amp would do for that matter. The DSL50 looks good on paper, and I haven't messed it with myself, beyond a brief test drive. But if it's got that typical compressed jcm800 thing going on, I can see why you're not nuts about the preamp gain. You're right about fuzz peds too, this style doesn't jive well with fuzz:s

So if you have to rely on your pedals, I would guess a Rat or Boss type OD should get you close. With the stuff you already have it's kinda weird imo that you're considering to take a step back and try something rat-ish

I mean, rats are okay and all, but imo the Elements can easiliy sound like a rat or boss overdrive, only better:idk:

It's like a swiss army knife, which is why I have one. I'm into so many styles, I keep it as my grab and go dirt pedal that I take with me for whatever jam/rehearsel situation for which I can't or don't want to haul my whome pedal board around.

Never noticed any noise issues on lower gain settings though, I'll try messing it with when I get back home though to find out what you're talking about.

So my last guess: Maybe your Marshall just isn't so pedal-friendly?

I could easily drop a couple pedal names here, and recommend yet another cool dirt box, but it doesn't sound like that's what you really need imo

If this is a matter of GAS, and/or you're sorta hoping to be inspired by a fresh new toy, I'll play along: Crowther Hotcake. Nothing super exotic or hip or whatever, it won't win you any hipster cred around here...But thoigh it's *slightly* muffled/muddy sounding in the highest gain settings, it's my go-to distortion pedal for everything else. Has it's own character, doesn't get scratchy or thin or fizzy or bass-sucking like a rat, and it's doesn't even cost that much more than a Rat I think. Fuzzy with the gain turned up, thick and throaty at half-dirty settings. Anyway, fuck those moronic adjectives, and just go check a bunch of yt clips:)

But the best advice I could give: Try out a couple other amps, just for the hell of it. I'm not jumping to conclusions about your amp, but maybe something else with a little more natural sounding onboard grit, with a little extra low end oopmph, thick and cleanish, with great note articulation...Might be more up yer alley:)

ChetMagongalo wrote:I think if you want this sound you should just crank a tube amp. Pedals will get you close but this will be a lot better.

That's awesome if you're Angus Young, but I doubt any of the sound guys and studio techs in the real world will agree with this approach:)

Wow, thanks for all the insight dude, I appreciate it!

frigid midget wrote:

ChetMagongalo wrote:I think if you want this sound you should just crank a tube amp. Pedals will get you close but this will be a lot better.

That's awesome if you're Angus Young, but I doubt any of the sound guys and studio techs in the real world will agree with this approach:)

yeah see that's the thing, i don't know about everywhere else in the world but sydney venues are 99% shit. i can't remember the last time i wasn't expected to turn my amp down to basically bedroom volume so it could be close-mic'd, so if my sound relied too heavily upon volume and tube amp compression to sound tight it would probably suffer in a live setting.

I think i'm gonna wait til my Harvester arrives (which will change things for the better hopefully because it will have jag pickups with slightly lower output than my J mascis jazzmaster or SGV), and try a bunch of stuff with what I already have, but A couple of those dirt pedals Tristan suggested especially seemed to have a closer character than any i have. I love the elements but it sort of sucks out the characteristics of the single coils that need to be retained for a punchier mid-gain sound IMO, like it's more geared towards sustain and saturation than compression or bite. I'll check out the Hotcake too.

I plan on getting a new amp but it wouldn't be for like 6 months probably. There aren't a lot of options where I live because I don't like buying new stuff (way overpriced) and the used market is pretty boring. I don't necessarily have GAS for the sake of GAS (it's been pretty absent lately) but I guess i'm becoming more particular about my base sounds because i haven't had the opportunity to try many amps or dirt pedals besides those i've bought/owned, like thinking everything sounds great and then suddenly realising EVERYTHING IS A LIE.

BBE Sonic Stomp.
Hirau uses one along with a Maxon OD820 Pro and a SD1 (IIRC) into a JC120.

The Comp Cut mode in the Fulldrives works amazing for that purpose too.

ramonovski wrote:BBE Sonic Stomp.
Hirau uses one along with a Maxon OD820 Pro and a SD1 (IIRC) into a JC120.

The Comp Cut mode in the Fulldrives works amazing for that purpose too.

oh sweet, that's the dude from Nuito yeah? have you seen them live?

i've been looking for an old JC120 for a while. i was thinking it'd be the best amp to get the same kinda sound at any volume. my friend has a newer model but it's broken down a couple of times so i'd rather get something that's already proven itself reliable.

You should check out a catalinbread formula 5F6 tho. that thing rules reallly hard

Donsharizer?

ChetMagongalo wrote:You should check out a catalinbread formula 5F6 tho. that thing rules reallly hard

sick, that one seems really jangly/punchy. 3-band EQ is cool too.

i like the sound of the Hotcake too actually, there's a double hotcake on ebay i'm keeping an eye on.

goroth wrote:Donsharizer?

man i want one of those, the boxidizer i have sort of cops those sounds though. it's the sort of thing you can crank a ton without sounding too loud or overpowering too.

hotcake is great on low gain, and great with bright amps. I cant stand it on even medium gain settings - it's all woolly and undefined.

goroth wrote:it's all woolly and undefined.

Quote for sig...

Yeah if you can't crank your amp one of those catalinbread amp in a box pedals would be cool maybe

Also thanks for posting that lite song, have heard about them but never got around to listening, was sick!