How much would you pay for relay switching?

[Chankgeez]

I thought it'd be funnier that way, no?

[multi_s]

oh yes dont worry, i think its all quite good

[DannDubbleEwe]

http://www.muzique.com/schem/bypass.htm

$7 a board. Easy as hell. If you want it as a retrofit get this.

[Jwar]

http://www.muzique.com/schem/bypass.htm

$7 a board. Easy as hell. If you want it as a retrofit get this.

Dude! Thank you so much for this!!! I've been wondering how the hell do this.

[DannDubbleEwe]

No problem man! They're awesome!!

[Narwhal-Industries]

you made some good points in your second post. although the relay is more like $2 in bulk. the PCB and resistors are cheap if you are the supplier, not the customer. I think behringer did an excellent job in how the proper industrial design of a pedal housing can greatly increases the life of the SMT tact switch. $2.50 total is still cheaper than $3.50 for 3PDT. the relay also has fewer moving parts and a lower failure rate on the datasheet. I can't even find the number of cycles spec for a taiwan blue 3PDT.

For Science!
http://www.chk-electronics.com/drawing/FC71077.pdf

[Jack Deville]

I'll chime in here:

Full disclosure: I designed the VFE relay system per Peter's design requirements. Peter incorporated some other goodies and designed his own PCB.

SMD vs Through-Hole: This is an everlasting debate, and frankly, I do not see resolution but that's just me. I know the system I designed for Peter will outperform / outlast the common mechanical push-button switches. I've run those test and I threw in the towel once the system had surpassed 400,000 cycles. That's CYCLES, ON, then OFF again. Or 800,000+ engagements. Sure through-hole is familiar and larger, but SMD is actually faster to service if you have experience and the correct tools for the job. On reliability: The computer I am currently using is primarily SMD construction. I'm not concerned about it shitting the bed. My cell phone? Also SMD. Also not concerned. Both are more expensive than most handmade effects pedals thus I should be really concerned about "losing my investment" or whatever TGP says, right?

My personal experience with the AMZ kit: failure prone and noisy. I also don't like that it was released shortly after the Click-Less™ kit I brought to market in 2010 with a very similar pinout and PCB layout, but that's just me being me and taking things personally. I can assure you there are faults within that system beyond the scope of user serviceability. Without significant changes to the design (I.E. a straight up clone of my system) it will overuse current, continue to be unstable and eventually fail. Not personal, that's just physics.

[multi_s]

My personal experience with the AMZ kit: failure prone and noisy. I also don't like that it was released shortly after the Click-Less™ kit I brought to market in 2010 with a very similar pinout and PCB layout, but that's just me being me and taking things personally.

hey, but just wait one second, according to the AMZ site "At the time of its introduction, this is the only true bypass relay system using an AVR microprocessor. " doesnt that make it totally unique??

"There is even some code that makes sure that the LED status and relay position do not get out of sync. "

the cltb site doesnt mention anything like that.?

[Jack Deville]

hey, but just wait one second, according to the AMZ site "At the time of its introduction, this is the only true bypass relay system using an AVR microprocessor. " doesnt that make it totally unique??

I selected the MicroChip product because it was a good fit for the job. I could very well have used a Freescale, Atmel, TI or shit, even a big ol hotshot AD chip with the job, but I don't like wasting resources.

"There is even some code that makes sure that the LED status and relay position do not get out of sync. "

the cltb site doesnt mention anything like that.?

I am confused as to how this is a selling point. I don't write redundant code.

I do however, include on-board diagnostics.

[crazynoises]

I'm amazed that people ever spring for the helper pcbs for 3PDT switches.

so much this.

I pay for 'em. It's much easier to solder to a PCB than try to get at lug five and do double joins or whatever. And you don't have to weave some short wire between lugs which also means not having to strip and tin it. I also hate doing the LED to resistor join. It just always feels sloppy to me. If you get a board with the LED and resistor already on it, that's much easier plus you save on some heatshrink if you don't like bare wire.

If you are an organized and somewhat naturally neat person, doing the 3PDT switch is no big deal. But I'm kinda sloppy. The 3PDT switch hits me at the worst point in the build because it's when the pedal is almost done and you just want to finish it so bad. But it's the area that also takes the most concentration and where you can easily end up with a bird's nest of wires. I suppose I save 15 minutes using a board, but it's the most painful 15 minutes and also the 15 minutes where I am by far the most prone to mess up.

So yeah, easier soldering, less wires to tin, don't have to epoxy the LED or buy/install a bezel, less need to concentrate. I can easily on a weeknight sit down and wire up 5-6 3PDT switches in a half hour and have them ready to go. It's painless. Whereas I would never do that without a PCB because I'm lazy. I'll pay $1-$2 to save 15 minutes. I will admit that it's a personal flaw that I can't do something as simple as wire up a 3PDT switch in a neat and orderly fashion with no mess up, but whatever. I got worse problems to fix. Better to shell out the money than to keep telling myself next time I'll be careful and do it right and then do it wrong yet again.

[eatyourguitar]

the relay also has fewer moving parts and a lower failure rate on the datasheet. I can't even find the number of cycles spec for a taiwan blue 3PDT.

For Science!
http://www.chk-electronics.com/drawing/FC71077.pdf

3PDT = 20,000 cycles

Jack Deville relay switching = 400,000+ cycles

ding ding ding, we have a winner

[multi_s]

3PDT = 20,000 cycles

so if i play a pedal every day, and tap it 10 times a day, a 3pdt will only last five and a half years.

what a piece of shit.

I pay for 'em. It's much easier to solder to a PCB than try to get at lug five and do double joins or whatever. And you don't have to weave some short wire between lugs which also means not having to strip and tin it. I also hate doing the LED to resistor join. It just always feels sloppy to me. If you get a board with the LED and resistor already on it, that's much easier plus you save on some heatshrink if you don't like bare wire.

well different strokes for different blokes and if it works for you thats cool. If i design something i put the led resistor on the main board so... this results in only 1 wire per lug on the switch and also i have no problems hitting 'pin 5' on a 3pdt with an iron (or pin 5 on a tqfp)

[eatyourguitar]

so if i play a pedal every day, and tap it 10 times a day, a 3pdt will only last five and a half years.

what a piece of shit.

I have replaced a footswitch in a pedal that was 36 years old. if that pedal had relay switching it might not need service at all. in my experience, that was the only one that came in for repair that had even a possibility of going through 20,000 cycles. all the other footswitches that I have replaced died before reaching 20,000 cycles. so really there is more to it than just N cycles under perfect test conditions. I actually believe that there are a few that leave the factory with defects causing them to fail premature. the 20,000 is also irrelevant when you consider that some users can and will abuse gear to the point of failure. more important than a datasheet is how they hold up in the real world.

[multi_s]

Yaya im not saying relay switching is a bad thing, or that 400,000 is less than 20,000. But I dont get your point completely. IE even with the preemo grade jd kit you end up with a mechanical foot switch that could fail prematurely from 'non laboratory' conditions. Is the spec of the relay then irrelevant too? (:

[eatyourguitar]

the relay is not a human interface device. it is also protected from accidental damage since it is inside the case. we can not compare them like apples to apples. so with all that in mind, the 400,000 cycles for the relay is most likely the only spec that matters. since we can not in our life time ever use a pedal that much, you can pretty much assume that it will not fail at all. so now if we can find a footswitch that is more reliable than the blue 3PDT, we do not need to multiply (footswitch failure)*(relay failure) to get the total failure probability. it would just be a matter of determining if any given footswitch is more or less prone to failure than the 3PDT. that guy on kickstarter seems to have something interesting with that footswitch he selected.