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johnjohn wrote:That Codex posting scares the shit out of me. Outraged and paranoid as well.

I think the operative word is "paranoid"


You have a culture and multiple industries geared toward shovelling large amounts of cheap crap into people as food. That's the problem.
Americans (horrible generalisation I know, but I hope you know what I mean w/o getting all offended) aren't happy after a meal unless they're stuffed to the gunnels, lolling about like a beached whale unable to move...oh, and they don't want to pay more than $2.99 for it. *

Forget the illuminati, there's no need. If you eat arugula and bean sprouts and tofu you're a weirdo, a snob, a girlyman, an elitist... that's the cultural component.
There's also the meat with everything mentality. Again, culture.
You then have a billion dollar advertising industry dressing up all sorts of useless crap to convince people it's appealing.
You have a system of lopsided agrobusiness subsidies that are so out of whack with what they should be for health reasons it's not funny.



Then there's the whole agrobusiness thing too. No longer do people grow food, multinational corporations do. What's the role of a multinational corporation? Make money for shareholders for next quarter, and that's it. So, if they can do it cheaper, they will. Fuck the conseqiuences.
Corn syrup? Put it in everything, we don't know what to do with it, feed it to the pigs...err...people. That stuff is nasty, and it's the biggest ingredient in so much N. American food it's not funny.
Again, meat with everything, but lets do it on the cheap. Pump em full of hormones and antibiotics to make em bigger quicker cheaper. I'm sure that woin't have any negative effects on the people eating the end product now will it? (I remember years ago seeing an argument about the EU refusing to allow US beef onto the European market because of the chemicals and hormones; there was a guy on from the US Meat Marketing Association bleating on that there was no evidence of health risks blah blah blah…the guy had a head the size of a tangerine on top of a body that looked like a hot air balloon, he was red and sweating the whole time looking like he was on the verge of a heart attack and his head was going to explode).

And yes Big Pharma is evil, but not in the simplistic paranoid delusional James Bond bad guy kinda way the tinfoil hatters like to obsess over, all the while taking their eye off the ball. And they're only evil in that like all corporations their sole goal is to make money money money money. Only difference is the direct effect they have on your health.

The battlefield is education vs. marketing, and marketing has a bigger budget.

*EDIT: Found the Billy Connolly I was looking for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuUpShuC5dY
Handy hint: the bucket is the implement of the farm yard.

It is extremely difficult to eat well here, even if you try. And it always costs more to eat healthier. Especially, poor and rural areas have little access to anything other than Walmart (and can't afford anything but).

I had a strange conversation with a friend from the Ukraine, who was telling me that all their produce is organic and pesticide/chemical free. Because using pesticides and/or altering them costs so much more; their farmers save money and sell their produce cheaper because it is not altered. I said, that's funny--we charge way more for organic!

Part of the problem is, what we eat is influenced by lobbyists and big business. From something simple, like the bureaucracy that stamps the organic label on foods, which companies then use to justify a higher price tag...to something more complex, like the corn lobby.

I think the corn lobby serves as a good example of what's wrong with the way we're doing things. The corn manufacturers have their own lobbyists...with a big surplus of corn (and seeing dollar signs), they pushed putting it in everything, from sweeteners to car engines. For the past 5 years, I've seen advertisements on TV telling people the high fructose corn syrup is natural...cause it's "just corn"!

They forgot that it's then processed. On top of that, at least 30% of our high fructose corn syrup contains mercury (at least at levels unsafe for infants...and it's in some baby food), and some independent studies have put it closer to 50% (FHCS manufacturers use mercury to process/separate the corn from the corn starch)...the FDA found out, but sat on the info for three years before quietly announcing it in Jan 2009. To counter this, in Feb 2009, the corn lobby released an article claiming that all of these studies, independent and FDA, were "seriously flawed and outdated" and didn't meet the "standards for scientific research." Even if that could possibly be true, that means they're claiming that these scientists--including the FDA--are failing to meet standards for scientific research.

It's impossible to get to the bottom of it, because millions of dollars are being spent to prevent anyone from getting any straight info. Got a scientist or doctor warning people about your product? Buy your own scientists and doctors to refute it. Why'd the FDA sit on the info for 3 years? Cause they're an unmanageable bureaucracy and they failed us? Or because of the lobbyists pressuring them? We'll never know...and we'll never eat better...until huge lobbies and corporations are prevented from using millions to manipulate and mislead. So I guess it'll continue to be difficult to eat well.

basti moon wrote:Don't you have nice grocery stores in America?
I would think getting vegetables wouldn't be that hard. In my experience, muslim or arabic parts of town usually have fruit vendors, but white people steer away because the veggies aren't as "shiiiiny" as the ones in other places.

We do have some nice grocery stores with good produce, though most carry the whole range of our foods. And the great produce is usually much more expensive when carried in those grocery stores. I try to buy local, or at least in-state, produce...it's uglier, but tastes way better. Anyway, the price becomes the problem. If you live in a wealthy area, you'll have the options on where to shop, and most likely the money to buy healthier. That's where the problem comes in. I know lots of great parents who can generally only afford processed food, whether from Walmart or fast food. There are a lot of towns where Walmart is the only choice (I currently live in a college town, and even here, it's the only grocery store). Most people in this area can't afford to shop anywhere buy Walmart anyway, which often has a small and terrible produce section. I have to travel about 30 mins to get to a grocery store with a big quality produce section, and it's much more expensive.

seems like all the large grocery stores there are surrounded by fast food places that offer instant "gratification" for less than 2 bucks.

comtrails70 wrote:seems like all the large grocery stores there are surrounded by fast food places that offer instant "gratification" for less than 2 bucks.

...and a long-term promise of bovine spongiform encephalopathy, woo hoo!

So are local markets hard to find in other places 'round the country? I agree with the large devnulljp post above but have never found it terribly difficult to eat well. I've never lived in The Big City and I grew up relatively poor, but it's never been an issue to eat well, outside of personal choice. Sure, the health food store down the street can be a bit pricey, but tofu, grains, veggies, etc. are dirt cheap from a variety of places, including the big chains (though admittedly, chain produce isn't always ideal). HFCS is hard to avoid, but not impossible. It's all but banned from our house, even when we feel the desire for soda there are plenty of non-shite options. Fast food... there are no excuses. It's expensive and utterly terrible for you. Sure I indulge every so often, but if you don't know that shit will kill you, fast, you're a moron and likely better served as worm food.

NOTE: I loathe the disgusting "food" industry in this country, but as long as multiple viable options remain, my outrage remains at bay.

Tom Dalton wrote:It is extremely difficult to eat well here, even if you try. And it always costs more to eat healthier. Especially, poor and rural areas have little access to anything other than Walmart (and can't afford anything but).

Does Walmart sell brown rice and lentils? I've been living off those two staples for 30 years and they are dirt cheap.

I just checked the website, 15 varieties of lentils and 43 kinds of brown rice. So, I don't get this mentality that eating healthy is expensive. Time consuming sure, along with preparation it might require a little research and creativity, but it's surely not cost prohibitive.

For comparison, I take my Grammaw shopping once a week for food. She lives off microwaved food and Starbucks Crapuccino things, and has for years. She lives alone and spends about $120 per week on her processed diet, even if she eats very little overall. That's almost $500 per month, for one person on a small diet.

The woman and I eat a good bit more than she does, entertain guests more often, and are two people. Processed crap is limited to tofu type wieners primarily, but we still get candy, chips, and other fun bits. We spend probably $300 a month at best, and that includes several runs to the expensive health food store for various girlyman weirdo snacks/drinks/pills.

nad wrote: it might require a little research and creativity...

I think you hit the problem right there.

nad wrote:

Tom Dalton wrote:It is extremely difficult to eat well here, even if you try. And it always costs more to eat healthier. Especially, poor and rural areas have little access to anything other than Walmart (and can't afford anything but).

Does Walmart sell brown rice and lentils? I've been living off those two staples for 30 years and they are dirt cheap.

I just checked the website, 15 varieties of lentils and 43 kinds of brown rice. So, I don't get this mentality that eating healthy is expensive. Time consuming sure, along with preparation it might require a little research and creativity, but it's surely not cost prohibitive.

Totally true. Dried beans and brown rice (parboiled white rice is almost as good for you, allegedly) are the cheapest things you can get, and there are a billion things you can do with them. You just have to cook them!

Farmers markets can often be a good place to get veggies, too. Buy in bulk, and spend a day chopping and freezing them. But since you don't know what those farms are doing, you can just get frozen veggies at the store. Usually, those aren't as tasty, though. When fruit and veggies taste better, they're better for you. : D


My parents have been going to Walmart a lot lately because it's cheaper. They're both sick and won't stop buying junk food. I've offered my paycheck before so they can go shopping with the conditions that they 1) Don't go to walmart and 2) don't buy so much processed crap.

Nutrition has been linked to more diseases and conditions than the obvious. A lot of them are often medicated (ex: Depression, skin problems, etc). When you consider the cost of the medication, in many cases, the crap food isn't cheaper. But, then again, the people discussed in this thread aren't in a position to buy the meds either. So the quality of their life just sucks in general.


This post sums up the real problem: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=1729&start=15#p100372

Jumping in midway without reading all of the posts to big-up my hometown: Providence has a program where people on food-aid can use their credits at local farmers markets, and as of (I think) last year, we have a farmer's market in a different location in the city every day of the week during summer months. In the winter, there's an indoor farmer's market once a week. More places should try this... from what I understand, participation has been great...

McSpunckle wrote:

nad wrote:

Tom Dalton wrote:It is extremely difficult to eat well here, even if you try. And it always costs more to eat healthier. Especially, poor and rural areas have little access to anything other than Walmart (and can't afford anything but).

Does Walmart sell brown rice and lentils? I've been living off those two staples for 30 years and they are dirt cheap.

I just checked the website, 15 varieties of lentils and 43 kinds of brown rice. So, I don't get this mentality that eating healthy is expensive. Time consuming sure, along with preparation it might require a little research and creativity, but it's surely not cost prohibitive.

Totally true. Dried beans and brown rice (parboiled white rice is almost as good for you, allegedly) are the cheapest things you can get, and there are a billion things you can do with them. You just have to cook them!

I was speaking more specifically about fresh, quality produce, not really beans and rice...so yes, you can eat healthy-ish for dirt cheap, but not if we're talking fresh fruits and vegetables (especially ones that haven't been altered or sprayed). You'll also notice that healthy-to-unhealthy foods ratio is probably something like 95%:5%. Also, Walmart's site varies greatly from their actual stores--everything they sell is listed online, but stores are stocked based on region (what that region tends to eat, what sells well in that region/store). So it's easy to eat healthy from Walmart if you're extremely selective (and don't mind what's often a shitty fresh produce section)...but most people aren't educated enough to know what selections they should be making. So it does become a culture problem. We certainly can't cover all the facets in this thread! Another problem with buying produce from Walmart is how these fruits and vegetables are ending up on the shelves...there are a whole lot of people dying and suffering so you can buy bananas at Walmart. But that's another whole mess in itself...like I said, too many facets to get into here!

@nad

Here in SoCal we get local fresh fruit and vegetables all year round too. But most other places have winters.

...and this is why I wonder why everyone is so damned concerned with image issues and anorexia.