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I agree with alot of the things you say, jfrey. However, here's the thing: I'm an atheist and I've got a religious friend. When we discuss, I believe that I am right and he believes he is right. I can kinda understand how he thinks, and he can kinda understand how I think. However, we can't really convince each other that one or the other is in the right. I will point out things in the bible that doesn't make sense to me, and he will say that they are metaphors for this or that. I will say that I don't need the metaphors but rather clear ideas, he will disagree since there are things that we do not know about the universe etc. This can theoretically go on ad infinitum. Point being, I don't believe you can convince religious people to stop being religious, and I don't think it's necessary. As long as they don't hurt or discriminate others, it doesn't really matter to me, however weird I think their way of thinking is. Hey, isn't it cool that we're different etc.?

Also, when I say I'm an atheist, this is what I mean: I don't understand the term 'God'. I have no idea what people mean when they use it. Seriously. Ok, some people refer to the big guy in the sky who for some reason wants to control what humans do but have little interest in the other animals, which I think is silly and illogical, but a lot of the more modern religious peeps seem to believe in some higher power that is not a "personality of superlatives" (all knowing, all powerfull guy), but more like the force from Star Wars or something. I can't really understand such a concept in a way that makes me believe it. Hope that shed some light on something. Or whatever.

This guy is cool, though:

I guess in my pragmatic mind, the rationale isn't as important as the conclusion. Specifically, when the conclusion is that one truth is more just than another and all other truths are innately harmful nothing good can come from that. When that is the conclusion, it doesn't matter what the "one truth" is; it's just as destructive as the last.

A fart by a different cheese still smells, but often it makes the farter feel better to get out.

But I've had this discussion before and this is the point where I know it's good to dip out before people start taking things too personally.

I'll leave you with a metaphor to lighten things up: the way you don't understand how people can believe in God is much like the way I don't understand how people can like mayonnaise. I'd rather it be made illegal and exterminated, but wouldn't it be better if we just learned to live with each other?

snipelfritz wrote:I'll leave you with a metaphor to lighten things up: the way you don't understand how people can believe in God is much like the way I don't understand how people can like mayonnaise. I'd rather it be made illegal and exterminated, but wouldn't it be better if we just learned to live with each other?

Things just got personal

Time to bombard jfrey

Long story short, you're advocating an anti-childlike stance where every living thing is your enemy and you must be hostile to survive. You're advocating a belief, actually, a fear-based one.

But belief is a wonderful thing, because if you feel/believe to be a strong and stable individual, you can believe ANYTHING EVER, and still not get phased by it if it turns out not to be true. You just gather knowledge along the way and grow through it while the untruth falls away by itself. So why the fuck even make a big deal out of it?

jfrey wrote:The bit about blinders. If someone believes the Sun goes around the Earth, it isn't imprisoning them to tell them they can't be teaching that to children. It would be mental child abuse. And, it isn't imprisoning to tell them that they shouldn't believe that either. It's like talking to someone that has lived in a cage their whole life, and them telling you that they like it there, why should you force them to come out, and why should you want to stop them from raising their children in the cage with them?

Yeah, this part is a big deal for sure; but the point is that fighting/being militant is only going to further enforce their/defenders belief, because that's how most people are wired; unsure about themselves and they must protect something that they believe is bigger then them, which is actually just substituting their lack of faith in themself; so you're not really helping the issue here, rather enforcing it.

You're basically advocating that the world wants to hurt you and that you need to be constantly on your toes. Even if that were true, I don't care, (nor should you) cuz I believe I'm capable enough to get through anything that comes my way.
And I won't even go into the argument of why the whole planet actually evolved to live in harmony as a self-sustainable system and what proof we have about it which just goes against any militant-ism except defense of life/ecosystem.

jfrey wrote:To believe something requires a person to think in a way that is not scientific, is not based on reality. I find it really troubling that a person like that is making decisions that affect the world. I'd find it troubling for them to make decisions that could affect a pet hamster, let alone a planet.

jfrey wrote:Belief in god requires proof that that belief is valid. It holds the burden of proof. On the other side, almost no atheists say that it is impossible for there to be a god. There simply isn't any evidence that there is one, no reason to suspect there might be.

These are perfect examples of beliefs mind you.

If we want to nurture a healthy strong society, we need positive role models.
It's a FAR more imposing image of a man that is open and can take everything into consideration without fear of being brainwashed; but is ultimately free from it all - then of a man who is militant about anything. Relaxation>Cramps
If you have to be militant about something means you don't really believe it to be a strong/stable/true idea, as you exclaim you do; not really compelling in any way, and not solving anything.

jfrey wrote:My main problem is with the concept of belief. The more immediate problem though is that beliefs do have real consequences. Saying live and let live or whatever is a cop out. It grants license for stupidity. It's why we have declining vaccination rates, people opposing gmo research when starvation and malnutrition are still serious problems in large portions of the world, opposition to stem cell research which could in our lifetime wipe out hundreds of debilitating conditions if allowed to.

Ok, opposition to stem cell research is bs; but if you're gonna advocate GMO's in a starving world, you have no idea about permaculture, how it works, and what it's capable of, ok? If anything is a cop-out, GMOs are one. I encourage you to inform yourself more about permaculture, and why agriculture is bs we've been doing wrong from the start.

I won't answer for Jfrey but in regards to GMOs, not all GMOs are the applied within the bullshit Monsanto style model. When you are looking at third world countries and people growing crops (both large and small scale) within a hostile environment at first glance (I haven't seen the video yet, I will watch it though) it doesn't look like it's going to help an awful lot. What is permacultures answer to crop destroying insects or diseases, what about extreme weather or soil conditions? I don't know about permaculte but that is something GMOs can help with and when it's something that is literally a life or death situation for some people you can't be stuffing around.

Chances are that permaculture and GMOs could probably be combined pretty effectively with a properly thought out approach to the ecological impact in the way we are modifying crops and we don't have to use a one fits all approach in regards to the economic and environmental disparity between countries. First thing we have to do is blow up Monsanto (only half joking).

Golden rice yo.

Twangasaurus wrote:I won't answer for Jfrey but in regards to GMOs, not all GMOs are the applied within the bullshit Monsanto style model. When you are looking at third world countries and people growing crops (both large and small scale) within a hostile environment at first glance (I haven't seen the video yet, I will watch it though) it doesn't look like it's going to help an awful lot. What is permacultures answer to crop destroying insects or diseases, what about extreme weather or soil conditions? I don't know about permaculte but that is something GMOs can help with and when it's something that is literally a life or death situation for some people you can't be stuffing around.

Chances are that permaculture and GMOs could probably be combined pretty effectively with a properly thought out approach to the ecological impact in the way we are modifying crops and we don't have to use a one fits all approach in regards to the economic and environmental disparity between countries. First thing we have to do is blow up Monsanto (only half joking).

You don't get crop destroying insects or diseases cuz permaculture doesn't do monoculture
It's pretty amazing and mindblowing when you first get into it. The deeper you go, the more obvious things are. The native americans used permaculture! lol! Agriculture is bs, even more so starting the industrial era.

And I know quite a lot about GMOs and that sometime people mistake them for hybridized plants. The GM crop yields are actually the same, but mostly lower then natural selection. They are not even pest-resistant, that's why there was this huge uproar in India at one point. All that Monsanto promised, their seeds failed to deliver.

Meanwhile permaculture is doing this.
EOD

Fair enough man, certainly sounds interesting that's for sure.

futuresailors wrote:

snipelfritz wrote:I'll leave you with a metaphor to lighten things up: the way you don't understand how people can believe in God is much like the way I don't understand how people can like mayonnaise. I'd rather it be made illegal and exterminated, but wouldn't it be better if we just learned to live with each other?

Things just got personal

YEAH I FUCKING LOVE MAYO, WHAT THE FUCK SNIPS?!?!?

alexa. wrote:Ok, opposition to stem cell research is bs; but if you're gonna advocate GMO's in a starving world, you have no idea about permaculture, how it works, and what it's capable of, ok? If anything is a cop-out, GMOs are one. I encourage you to inform yourself more about permaculture, and why agriculture is bs we've been doing wrong from the start.

FYI permaculture largely overlaps with GM. People don't understand what a GMO is. It's not a business model, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with chemicals or pesticides, or anything else like that. All it is, is consciously guiding or otherwise affecting the growth and heredity of organisms. If you're doing permaculture, you're doing GM. Also, people act like GMOs are some new kind of thing. No one alive on this planet has ever eaten a single thing in their entire life that isn't technically a GMO.

morange wrote:Jfrey, you're not the only one here with an education, so could you lay off the condescension?

I have always thought that to not challenge people on points of contention is one of the greatest of disrespectful acts. I don't consider it condescending when people do the same to me. If anything, I think it is demeaning when people don't. If you disagree with me, I invite you to change my mind.

morange wrote:Humans have believed in gods as far back as we know; I think that counts for something, unless all of our ancestors were just dumb shits who didn't know any better. It's more likely they had some reason to believe what they did. Yeah I know, scientific revolution and all that. Also, it's a big claim to say everything in the bible is a lie. It's hard now thousands of years later to tell what's true, but it seemed so to the people who lived during those times. I think our inherited human memory carries some credence, and qualifies as a form of evidence, or at least probable cause, to believe in a higher being, and it's out of line to say it's completely nonsensical to believe in God.

The existence of life and the universe still point to a creator, and science has led us into a deeper understanding of what an excellent creation it is. There will always be things we don't fully understand, because we can't perceive everything. When we think about what caused the big bang, it takes as much faith to say it was completely spontaneous as to say it was God.

Jfrey, you're not the only one here with an education, so could you lay off the condescension?

Easy there Seabiscuit.

I personally believe there's no god or higher power but I'm going to guess religion was started as more a of a morale booster for those struggling with purpose in their existence. I mean atheism is kind of depressing, you live, do shit and die and everything you've touched will eventually be forgotten, like it never existed.

I feel like religion provides comfort for people knowing that their essence and everything they worked to be carries on after they die. I feel like that spiritual connection is fine and practicing religion doesn't affect me as long as it doesn't permeate other aspects of our society. However religion is a giant cultural force so we'll never see it separated from the state because every politician is just a pawn for corporate and religious ideals, they have to be or they wouldn't get funding.