The what ever thread...

[jfrey]

I think objectivity is not only possible but necessary. If you break something down to its simplest part it is easy to judge in a truly objective manner. In music that would probably be a single note.

Was the note played cleanly? If not, was that intentional?

All other things are at least partly subjective when considering a single note (type of instrument, tone, effect, etc) because these deal with your preferences.

That you can objectively judge even this small thing means that objectivity is possible - however difficult - in any area.

It's two parts: what is it? and what was the intent?

This is why a child's fingerpainting is not objectively good art. The intent does not match the execution. They do not paint the way they do because they choose to but rather, because they can't in the way they would if their age and experience were no barrier. Of course you may say 'It's good for his/her age.' but that's introducing a qualifier that invalidates any kind of objective consideration.

The only question I can see someone asking is: How do you know if ________ was intended or not? Well, to use music as an example again - after playing an instrument for long enough you get a pretty good idea of what is intentional or not. If you don't, then you probably haven't been paying attention - or haven't been playing long enough. And this isn't to say a person can be right 100% of the time. And, there are also people that can turn something unintended into something good, but that is itself an act of intent.

[unownunown]

well, there's a problem with using humans to judge 'cleanly' and 'intentional.' not everyone is going to agree on what both of those mean in the context of this note, dependent upon their subjective experiences. i believe every time anyone judges anything, it's colored by their personal experiences and emotions. now, if you had a machine listen to the note for proper value and pitch, that would be objective. but proper value and pitch still doesn't necessarily mean the note will sound 'good' to our human ears because it's leaving out the issues of timbre and context.

i think intention especially is extremely subjective.

i don't think i agree with what you're saying about the finger painting because that is applicable for all ages and skill levels. you could say skill level's always handicapping people. you make art that's always below or at your skill level, because that's really all you can do.

edit:

Well, to use music as an example again - after playing an instrument for long enough you get a pretty good idea of what is intentional or not.

that's entirely subjective. you can tell because of "for long enough" and "pretty good idea."

edit edit: but this is allll totally my subjective opinion because i'm not trying to objectively state that humans are always subjective

[jfrey]

I believe every time anyone judges anything, it's colored by their personal experiences and emotions.

We all have that biased judgement, but it is possible to step away from it if you can discard your emotions. Perhaps I am just a cold person, but I have never found that at all difficult to do.

Edit: As for the "pretty good idea" edit thing above, what I mean is that humans aren't infallible, but we can at least approach objectivity. I am sure you know people that are more objective than others. Well if that is the case than it must be possible to be even more objective than that, and so forth.


Edit Part Deux: On the subject of "whatever" I need to learn to not overdo it the first day back to working out after being sick for a couple weeks. Arms are so sore I can barely straighten them out.

[DarkAxel]

i heard about Metallica+Lou Reed colab

bitch please

[dubkitty]

and people laughed when i was disappointed that Armageddon didn't happen the other week.

[eatyourguitar]

we can at least approach objectivity. I am sure you know people that are more objective than others. Well if that is the case than it must be possible to be even more objective than that, and so forth.

spock would be proud.

[eatyourguitar]

well, when it comes to arts and stuff, i don't believe you can truly truly ever judge anything objectively. hell, i just don't think humans can objectively judge anything period. although i have said on many occasions 'it's bad but i love it!' but that is sort of my way of saying i like it even though i know most people will say it sucks. a way of avoiding the argument that often goes along with validating liking something because i know my validation won't be 'okay' for most people. validating liking art is probably one of the dumber things in life, anyway.

i guess you can judge things as you think the majority of people will judge them and that gives the impression of objectiveness, but it's not the same.

i read somewhere that 'when you think about something for long enough, any criticism or analysis begins to seem arbitrary, pointless and pointlessly subjective.'

a paradox that makes communication and honesty inversely proportional. it would be nice to speak in a way that everyone understands without changing what you really want to say. but I do believe it is rare and incidental. with variation comes incompatibility. but I dont want to live in a world where everyone is the same. so the struggle for communication is a never ending and necessary one. maybe thats why I like art.

[futuresailors]

[tuffteef]

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[theavondon]

so whens this ilovefuzz.com delay coming out

f'real

[tuffteef]

so whens this ilovefuzz.com delay coming out

f'real

theres enough of us to do it

[theavondon]

so whens this ilovefuzz.com delay coming out

f'real

theres enough of us to do it

What's that saying about monkeys in a room writing Shakespeare?

[tuffteef]

so whens this ilovefuzz.com delay coming out

f'real

theres enough of us to do it

What's that saying about monkeys in a room writing Shakespeare?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcSUWP0QNeY[/youtube]

oh god so good

[Mudfuzz]

[tuffteef]

i just wanted to let you all know that toaster pickups are legit and the rage
and the hi gains are the poo poos