856 for ZELLERSASN (Firmware 1.6 released, last page)

[multi_s]

hi

yes you can update it on mac. i do not have a mac to test though but it can be done similar to the ct5 on linux or mac os.

i will post more instructions in the next week or so.

s

[solfege]

hi

yes you can update it on mac. i do not have a mac to test though but it can be done similar to the ct5 on linux or mac os.

i will post more instructions in the next week or so.

s

Awesome! Thanks.

[cosmicevan]

Been really loving this pedal...kinda understand it a little (not really)...have been exploring the pedal mostly using vocal clips as it is very obvious to me what is going on when manipulating a vocal phrase vs notes.

Questions:
- Is there a way to blank out what's been recorded in the device without cycling power? If so, how?
- I see that you can reset parameters using the uni switch w the feedback switch, but curious what position the knobs should be in for when starting out, ie what would be default position? While I realize I can move a knob to wake it up, I'd like to have the knobs in a default spot when I start mangling a loop so that when first changing a knob it respects that it is in default position instead of jumping to where it is when I wake it up....for example, setting pitch to unison so that when I want to edit the pitch turning the knob wakes it up as unison and not an octave up and I have to search for unison (if that makes sense). I find that when waking a knob it jumps the sound...so if I have gain cranked on N1 and click over to N2 if I want to fade N2 in as I turn the gain down to wake the knob, N2 starts playing resulting in a sudden N2 that I manually quickly fade so I can then fade it in. Almost as difficult to describe this thing as it is to understand it...but I really see some great potential to make music with this - I have a vision of starting a show w this recording a "Hello, welcome to the show" and then making that nuts and turning it into a rhythmic beat to jam over, then slowly pyramid the jam out and restore the vocal sample.back down to the original clip...maybe even trim it to a repeating "the show" and fade that out. This thing could be game changing for creating interesting spontaneous live music (and I have yet to explore AREC mode).

Thanks scott, super forward thinking work. Fingers crossed I am in the right spot when PurPLL makes its debut in the webshop.

[multi_s]

if you hit record from a non playing state then the old recording is gone. there is no explicit clear button because you just stop playback then hit record again. this is how it should work afaik. if you find a bug please let me know./

i will add what the default/reset positions are to the manual shortly, that is a good point. For almost all settings it is ccw on the pot, for pitch its unison, for length its max. i will clarify that in the manual though, it is a good point.

maybe what you are suggesting is something like: the knob does not "wake up" until it is moved to the actual setting it is at. just as a simple example if gain for n2 was 0 by default/reset (fully ccw) but you were in N1 with it closer to CW direction, then flipped to N2 and moved gain, nothing would happen until gain was turned all teh way down, then once it matches the setting the internal value responds to the knob etc.

Been really loving this pedal...kinda understand it a little (not really)...have been exploring the pedal mostly using vocal clips as it is very obvious to me what is going on when manipulating a vocal phrase vs notes.

Questions:
- Is there a way to blank out what's been recorded in the device without cycling power? If so, how?
- I see that you can reset parameters using the uni switch w the feedback switch, but curious what position the knobs should be in for when starting out, ie what would be default position? While I realize I can move a knob to wake it up, I'd like to have the knobs in a default spot when I start mangling a loop so that when first changing a knob it respects that it is in default position instead of jumping to where it is when I wake it up....for example, setting pitch to unison so that when I want to edit the pitch turning the knob wakes it up as unison and not an octave up and I have to search for unison (if that makes sense). I find that when waking a knob it jumps the sound...so if I have gain cranked on N1 and click over to N2 if I want to fade N2 in as I turn the gain down to wake the knob, N2 starts playing resulting in a sudden N2 that I manually quickly fade so I can then fade it in. Almost as difficult to describe this thing as it is to understand it...but I really see some great potential to make music with this - I have a vision of starting a show w this recording a "Hello, welcome to the show" and then making that nuts and turning it into a rhythmic beat to jam over, then slowly pyramid the jam out and restore the vocal sample.back down to the original clip...maybe even trim it to a repeating "the show" and fade that out. This thing could be game changing for creating interesting spontaneous live music (and I have yet to explore AREC mode).

Thanks scott, super forward thinking work. Fingers crossed I am in the right spot when PurPLL makes its debut in the webshop.

[cosmicevan]

maybe what you are suggesting is something like: the knob does not "wake up" until it is moved to the actual setting it is at. just as a simple example if gain for n2 was 0 by default/reset (fully ccw) but you were in N1 with it closer to CW direction, then flipped to N2 and moved gain, nothing would happen until gain was turned all teh way down, then once it matches the setting the internal value responds to the knob etc.

Ah yes...makes sense when you phrase it like that. I hadn't paid attention if I crossed the threshold with the knob to "wake it up" but you are probably right since I wasn't seeing consistent performance in waking knobs up to activate N2, N3 and the various pitches within each repeat, I will verify this week. There are very few things that when I control they respond as I expect. The rest, I am trying to learn how it should respond and testing my theories. This is a very cool device though. The concept of the whole thing has really given me some cool (I think) ideas on how to turn a basic loop into a rhythmic symphony to jam over.

As a side, has anyone explored building out MIDI controls for this beyond the Buchla mappings from the initial release? I was debating building a TouchOSC template, but I'm still pretty new to TouchOSC so was curious if anyone had taken this or another approach that I can use as a starting point?

[multi_s]

ah sorry, i meant that it does work as you said, but that maybe what i wrote is an improvement or more what you are suggesting.

right now the parameters maintain their values until a knob is perturbed past some small threshold. then wherever the knob is, that is the value assigned to that parameter.

So if gain of N2 was 0, and you switch from N1 to N2 with gain knob at max, the gain of N2 will stay 0 until gain knob is moved. However when it is moved the gain of N@ instantly becomes whatever teh setting of the gain knob is. (so it will likely jump from 0 to something large as you said).

[cosmicevan]

ah sorry, i meant that it does work as you said, but that maybe what i wrote is an improvement or more what you are suggesting.

right now the parameters maintain their values until a knob is perturbed past some small threshold. then wherever the knob is, that is the value assigned to that parameter.

So if gain of N2 was 0, and you switch from N1 to N2 with gain knob at max, the gain of N2 will stay 0 until gain knob is moved. However when it is moved the gain of N@ instantly becomes whatever teh setting of the gain knob is. (so it will likely jump from 0 to something large as you said).

I think that your suggestion of having to bring the knob all the way down to wake it is a great idea and would be a great improvement...but it will probably confuse the user base. I can feel the posts "I turn the knob and it does nothing, its broken." Maybe make it a selectable mode via global params?

[multi_s]

Yes it seems more logical for some controls than others as well. We're thinking about it. There may be another small update with a few otehr features added in about 4-6 weeks so maybe something like this will also be added.

[cosmicevan]

After experimenting for quite some time this morning, I would definitely love it if the knobs woke up only when passing the threshold of where they were last set while toggling between the Ns and Ps. I really see a lot of ways to do some cool stuff but if working with multiple Ns or Ps you really have to remember where you were when toggling off and then quickly spin the knob if you want to do smooth moves. Even a quick spin results in some unwanted jumpiness in the playback of whatever you are trying to edit/tweak. I think this is most critical for the PITCH knob and the GAIN knob, but LEN and TMPO / REP it would be helpful as well (probably all of them, depending on your application) - particularly since the TMPO / REP knob controls overall tempo between BEATs when in N1, and the number of repeats when in N2/N3.

The use case I've been exploring is:
- capture a N1 "loop"
- clean it up (shorten, add env, etc) if desired/needed
- get the tempo between BEATs to satisfaction
- then introduce N2
- fade it in and mangle it or mangle it and then fade it in
- bounce back to N1, fade it out and work the tempo/pitches repeats on N2 and/or N3 until you are dancing
- slowly pyramid the maddness back to reality and end on my originally recorded N1 "loop"

I run into the jumpiness most when trying to set the pitches for the repeats toggling between P1, P2, P3 and switching back and forth between working with the number and time between repeats for N2 & N3 and then trying to adjust overall tempo on N1. I try to make fast moves between the BEAT light, but ultimately when I get something cooking and sounding good, the TMPO is usually pretty quick requiring me to iterate through a few BEATs while making my changes.

Overall, I like the idea of twisting knobs when using this, but realistically if I am to ever want to use this in a live situation I'd probably leverage MIDI so that things are more predictable. Even with having a threshold to pass, there is so much to keep track of in your head between the 3 layers of pitches on repeats for both N2 and N3 and with no visual indication that you've passed the threshold or where the threshold is it would be difficult to be in the moment and not leaving a lot up to chance when twisting knobs. Not that it can't be done (and not that I won't try anyway )...but I'll really need to practice being prepared for the unexpected and how to work with it smoothly unless using MIDI (or so it seems at this early stage).

For any newbies out there just starting to explore the 856, understanding this helped me a lot:
In Free Rec Mode:
T = FREE
with TMPO / REP fully CCW and DELTA fully CCW you get your base "loop" as you recorded it
your "loop" will play exactly as you recorded it
if you turn TMPO / REP CW, the tempo between your BEATs will increase resulting in your "loop" triggering before it ends playing fully once
DELTA from here fine tunes your tempo causing the BEAT to trigger a bit faster when fully CW or a bit slower when fully CCW
There is only one pitch to N1 so P1, P2, P3 will all edit N1 and any N1 repeats

This video was pretty game changing for me as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1XhiJQ52wo
[youtube]i1XhiJQ52wo[/youtube]

I've been working with these as my starting knob settings:
- N1
- ENV = CCW
- LEN = CW
- PITCH = unity ~ 12 oclock
- P1
- TMPO / REP = CCW
- FREE QUANT SKIP = FREE
- DELTA = 12 oclock
- POS = CCW
- STRIDE ABS UNI = ABS
- GAIN = CCW (if you plan to manipulate gain of N2 or N3 and bring it in) | CW or mostly CW (if you plan to start by manipulating N1 volume)
- OFSET = CCW

[oldangelmidnight]

right now the parameters maintain their values until a knob is perturbed past some small threshold. then wherever the knob is, that is the value assigned to that parameter.

This makes sense to me and the other suggestion seems really confusing.

[cosmicevan]

https://youtu.be/EaEdqYde6jg



This is the sort of concept I've been exploring. Towards the end of the video, I lost my place and didn't realize I had the FADE / GAIN / FBK on FADE. I thought it was on GAIN. I also thought I was editing tempo on N1 when I was futzing around w N2 repeats that were already faded out...so it wasn't all that smooth. I have had a few jams on some portions of the original loop that have been pretty cool. Especially when kicking on the cloudy and tweaking.

[cosmicevan]

This one was a little cooler. I didn't capture the original loop in time, but it didn't matter. I again forgot the Cloudy was there, but this thing is a monster!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2x0IgN9lvA



edit: PS. how does one post a youtube clip so it embeds? -- nvm figured it out

[cosmicevan]

Man this thing is SO deep!!! The more I use it the more it makes sense (well duh) and easier it becomes to go from a simple loop to chaos and back!!! What I know today, seems to change tomorrow and some truisms turn out to not always be as such. What major revelations I may think I have discovered might be totally wrong, so take all of this with a grain of salt (I'm still learning)


In any event, one HUGE concept that took me a while to get ahold of but changed my understanding of the entire thing is really that N1 is the master "loop" so some changes that happen at the N1 level are global. Things like:
- adjusting the tempo of how soon before the "loop" is triggered
- the LENgth or snippet size of the recorded "loop" that you want to play back

Most other controls are local to the N you are editing. On N2 and N3 you have essentially copies of what you built at N1 and from there, you can shift what part of the "loop" you are allowing to play via POS (stride steps through the loop, ABS controls absolute position of the "loop") and OFST will move where the playback happens. You can also control the pitch of playback for any N, but these go hand in hand w LEN (higher pitch will result in more "loop" getting played during the duration LEN that's set and vice versa for lower pitched playback).

For me, the obvious utility and use case I've been practicing is to record a "loop" with N1, then speed up the playback triggering via TMPO and Quantization, then trim down how much of the "loop" I am allowing to play during playback via the LEN knob. Once I get there, which is usually a cool rhythmic beat, I'll either shift around what part of the "loop" is playing via ABS and POS (but this is local to just N1, so N2/N3 will not sound the same)...from there, fade out N1 via GAIN and fade in N2 (which will be the same LEN and TMPO, but will have a different POS and OFST). Then it's really off to the races depending on if I want to get into repeats with pitch on N2 and then maybe slow things down or create a wild bed of apregiated pitches that I can even play with the knob.

Some other key observations (many of which are clearly written in the manual but understanding these was key for me):
- TMPO for N1 (in FREE & FREE record mode) in the middle is recorded TMPO, clockwise makes it go faster quickly, counter clockwise makes it trigger slower than recorded - this is the best way to speed things up initially
- DELTA for QUANT & FREE record mode is also a great way to speed things up, but can be a little jumpy and speed up REAL fast if you aren't careful
- The POS knob should be at noon to be in rest, counter clockwise steps backwards through the "loop", clockwise steps forwards through the "loop"
- UNI switch will restore the pitch for your N back to unity
- You can use presets to jump to a desired end or start state really quickly, but it also jumps you there really quickly and what fun is that?!?!

So these are probably better starting points for the knobs than what I had previously posted.
- N1
- ENV = CCW
- LEN = CW
- PITCH = unity ~ 12 oclock (click the UNI button and it will reset it)
- P1
- TMPO / REP = Noon
- FREE QUANT SKIP = FREE
- DELTA = CCW
- POS = Noon
- STRIDE ABS UNI = ABS
- GAIN = CW
- OFSET = CCW (maybe noon?)

I'm looking forward to exploring more of the secondary functions within the UNI held option and also exploring more with feedback to build starting loops as I would with a regular looper. Getting a simple record > play >overdub > play with everything just playing smoothly as with any other looper has evaded me. I always seem to get some amount of silence in the play back (I have been using R=B mode since I want my recording to capture the length of the "loop")

[cosmicevan]

Curious on the reset. UNI + FBK x2 resets what exactly? When I record over previous work and run the resets, it seems there are artifacts left over or that are not reset. Things like the number of repeats, pitches of the repeats, etc. I've been clicking FBK many times with UNI held for each N. Not sure if clicking more than 2 specific times is good/bad, but would love any guidance on resetting the pedal and what the initial reset state should look like.

As for my previous suggestion about waking up knobs. Now that I have a better handle on the pedal, it seems to me that the one knob that this wake up threshold would be required for is GAIN...possibly PITCH as well. Those are the 2 functions I'm most likely to be controlling when I toggle between the Ns and it is a real drag when I faded out an N and then want to jump to another N to fade it out and I have to quickly twist the knob to the appropriate GAIN (there's always an audible dip). Similarly if I just faded in one N and want to fade in another N on top, I'll get the jump.

Last observation/question of the evening - I'm noticing that at times when I am playing more than one N, one will dominate over the other and I'll only hear the dominant N instead of a chorus/cacophony of multiple Ns (which I am hoping for). In these cases, I'll need to fade the dominant N almost completely out before I hear what's happening on the other background N and that background N will suddenly appear once the dominant N is faded enough making for really jumpy audio. Curious if that's expected or what the limitations are for playing multiple Ns in the same sonic space. I find that if I leverage OFST I can get everything to play but it is less rhythmic pulse and more chaotic noise on noise.

[hotfat]

(edited) Something that I found that sounds like it *may* be part of what you're describing is that the number of repeats associated with the "P1, 2 and 3" of an "Nx" may be turned up and possibly at the same pitch without having them spread out using the "Delta" (triangle) knob. When the repeats are "stacked up" rather than staggered or spread out, their volume is additive so that each iteration makes it louder. If you have all 16 iterations (turning the REP knob to max) piled on top of each other it can be really loud. I don't know if this is clear ... I hope so. The Repeats can't really be heard as such without having Delta turned up so that the individual repeats are spaced out in time. This really confused me at the start.