Controversial Opinions

[BetterOffShred]

Trans-Siberian Orchestra is the only valid and acceptable P&W band.

Otherwise known as "butt rock Christmas"

[Jero]

Trans-Siberian Orchestra is the only valid and acceptable P&W band.

Otherwise known as "butt rock Christmas"

Far away
In a land caught between
Butt rock and Christmas
Where the Siberian Orchestra lay

...

[decomposing]

Matt Pike for president.

[Dandolin]

Far away
In a land caught between
Butt rock and Christmas
Where the Siberian Orchestra lay

[jirodreamsofdank]

New York punk is totally over-rated. most of that shit wasn't faintly transgressive even in 1976.

Until you get into the no wave stuff... I think they'd mostly agree with you (maybe not on the overrated)? New York (and maybe US punk in general?) was all about the pop and rock of the late '50s to late '60s, openly adoring everything from doo-wop to the British Invasion alongside wishing they could be free jazz weirdos. They had the exact opposite stance of the UK's "no Beatles no Stones in '77" pretending to break with the past thing.

[lordgalvar]

Except Sex Pistols with Glen Matlock were basically doing just rock.
Clash were doing a continuation of London SS and 101ers...which was pretty much influenced by the same stuff as the stones and Beatles (and some ska/reggae)
Jam were calling back to the old R&B, mod, and Who stuff (and went totally pop)

Buzzcocks and Vibrators...and a ton of the lesser known bands were the good UK stuff (I like it all). But generally still routed in the old rocknroll. Charlie Harper (UK subs) was a blues guy in an rnb band and was the hair dresser for the rolling Stones.

Crass was started by an old hippie that met the Beatles by entering a contest. He was dissapointed by their lack of making any real change and the failure of hippie culture and that informed his outlook as crass began. A lot of the music was influenced by tape music of the 60s and krautrock (hippie stuff).

All that English stuff is just as tied to it's past as American stuff. And in some ways, more bound to it.

All that street punk/Oi! Was just rehashed glam/pub rock. Cock Sparrer were even coverin' the stones.

By uk82, a lot of UK punk was pretty bland really. Some gems and some quality singles, but very few of the bands had staying power. The Anarcho scene had some real creativity though. Not gonna get into all that...but a lot of UK82 was kinda blending different punk into a kind of cohesive hardcore style. A lot of the people Ive talked to in that scene wanted to be Black Flag haha. Amebix wanted to be Killing Joke. Chaos UK was cross polinating with Japan.

New York stuff was alright. Ramones were more for what they represented, less for their creativity. It was a different rock star at the time and it got a label...but they had catchy songs too. Some great bands.

I don't think anyone claims the dead boys...but they are Midwest.

As for the coasts...I'm gonna say the first wave LA was kind of cooler in a lot of ways than new York. Maybe just because it lasted longer (and slightly after)

Can't forget DC and, though I don't want to admit it, New England, with siege, modern lovers and even some power violence. Midwest really was never my thing. And minutemen > husker du.

Comparing based on location ain't really fair though. By the time a lot of other bands sprouted, there was already a kind of national network of zine, tape, and show trading so they began influencing each other. The waves kinda zig zagged around and grew. So new York was small and then England then la and so on. They kind of built on each other.

[dubkitty]

i should have noted that NY punk also couldn't have existed without its Midwestern precursors, the Stooges and the MC5. like any human with ears and a heart, i love Iggy; for me the 5 have a great sound/vibe, but they couldn't write their way out of a wet paper bag and Tyner's voice is as annoying as anything in 1968 rock.

[lordgalvar]

Iggy was one of the best shows I've ever seen. Will always be one of my fondest memories. He basically collapsed off stage, he gave so much (I could kinda see fromwhere I was standing).

Totally agree with that though. The Midwest was kind of the precursor to the NY. There were other bands scattered about though too. The Dolls were a part of it. Sonic's. Count 5. Zolar X. Etc. Those novelty and strange records that people like the cramps talk about. It's got its roots in the kind of outsider (not of the RIAA, not so much society...but sometimes both), garage thing of the 1950s and 1960s.

This might be of interest:
https://medium.com/@JPRobinson/the-rott ... V9LVaZeLhU

That is a pretty good read. I loved how it went way back. It came up in a group I'm in. They don't see punk as really having any meaning out side the music (these are my UK friends and writers) where it's still used as an insult here (with varying definitions).

Zolar X never got enough mention.

[dubkitty]

it's certainly true that the most popular UK punk bands were about as recursive as their NYC counterparts, but the UK seems to have cast up a more angular and aggressive sound back in the shadows...i can't think of a US equivalent to the storming women and femme-centric bands of the first wave like the Raincoats, the Slits, and X-Ray Spex in particular, nor did we have any dogs in the early post-punk fight with the doom-laden kineticism of Joy Division and the Fall or the kaleidoscopic cut-ups of Swell Maps and This Heat, though my beloved Mission of Burma gave as good as anybody from 1981.

[jirodreamsofdank]

All that English stuff is just as tied to it's past as American stuff. And in some ways, more bound to it.

Yeah, but they definitely made a go of pretending to not be. John Lydon didn't cop to not actually hating Pink Floyd until like 2012.

[lordgalvar]

Some of the LA/socal/california stuff was pretty different. There were the Weirdos, Screamers, Blasters, Nervous Gender, Factrix, geza x, dead Kennedys, flyboys (there were some other neat oc bands from the 70s I'll try to remember). Weird Guys like Agnew in Adolescents and influencing goth. 45 grave, burning image (Bakersfield!).

Bad Religion did a "prog" album. TSOL did a melodrama keyboard album.
1973-5ish this band began:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6QmnaI95aU[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6QmnaI95aU

1980:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCp6TuqJ4-o[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCp6TuqJ4-o

Fun footage of the early, first Ford smog control system, thermacor (back when cars were California compliant or USA compliant)

Granted California/la came (slightly) later...and they are certainly more "LA" and American. Part of the reason we didn't have anybody in the post punk thing is because it was kind of an UK thing in my eyes. I think American stuff went more new wave, metal, hardcore...just different directions. We got hardcore and UK kinda followed. They got that post punk (what we now call it) and we followed. New York just morphed into something else.

When I was at rebellion, tons of the bands wished they had the rockabilly, socal, slight country thing...it was kind of amazing and shocking (and funny). I think it's partially like "oh, they're doing something different from us! Awesome...they are way cooler!"

I tend to like the UK stuff way more anyway. Anarcho is my stuff. I've really grown to love the early LA scene though.

I guess LA had Sparks too.

All I'm saying is that the exceptional music we got was because of cross influencing each other. It's awesome that punk got to exist for all this to transpire without (as many*) money men pushing us to a Nashville model.

* Clash, Ramones, sex pistols, VU, etc were all certainly part of the old way of music industry-ing in a lot of ways...but they helped inspire the independent music scenes

[nogodsnobedtimes]

words

Agreed.

Tom Petty is a generic Elvis Costello ripoff.

On the note, Elvis Costello is the only Elvis that matters.

[lordgalvar]

Another thing is that a lot of our modern categories of music and subgenres and all that were named way later. Anarcho wasn't Anarcho until after it fizzled out. Proto punk wasn't always proto punk.

Death wasn't trying to start a new thing, they were just trying to make something that they thought would resonance.

The Cravats are a good example. They kind of were contemporary to the first wave. First wave of UK punk kinda skipped 'em. They released a single on crass records and now they are considered Anarcho.

UK Subs started in 76 or 77 but are considered uk82 really.

Devo was a similar insulated art project that got kinda lumped in because of timing. They really didn't do much after the calendar went to the 1980s (meaning good stuff, first album and those "hardcore" Devo were best). I don't know how much influence they really had outside their little art scene at the time.

UK had their proto influences too: Screaming Lord Sutch, Arthur Brown, Hammersmith Guerillas, Slade, Equals (featuring Eddie grant), etc that were more local.

[Dandolin]

Whole lotta on point in here.

[lordgalvar]

All that English stuff is just as tied to it's past as American stuff. And in some ways, more bound to it.

Yeah, but they definitely made a go of pretending to not be. John Lydon didn't cop to not actually hating Pink Floyd until like 2012.

Lydon is about as reliable of a narrator as Morrissey (though maybe a better person and Rotten wins with better jamz).

Sex Pistols > Smith's
PiL > Morrissey

As for his preference and taste, everyone knew he'd rather be in a reggae, proggy, hippie band. About all I remember of that tour bus book by the driver of the US tour was Sid stabbing his hand and Johnny Rotten "Reggae is real music, this punk stuff is garbage" or something to that effect.

Speaking of Sid, first album, Sid Pink Floyd is best Pink Floyd.