Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the modulator masses

[Chankgeez]

Take two Green Ringers and call me in the morning.

[Chankgeez]

This's definitely the best looking ring modulator though:

[rfurtkamp]

I'm a sucker for early digital ring and amplitude modulation - the Lexicon Vortex and the mighty Bleen setting still make me a very happy deviant.

For straight ahead "it's a bell!" ringmod, I go back to my big box Frequency Analyzers, the only EHX effect I've ever truly loved.

[aen]

So fucking gross, and awesome?!?!
Damn, GAS reignites!

[Chankgeez]

HAX-cuse me!

[Chankgeez]

I want one of these:



Also, does anyone have any experience with passive ring modulation?

[elevenstrings]

You guys will probably poop all over me, but I really like the Ring Modulator in the Strymon Mobius.

[BLOOD EAGLE]

Also, does anyone have any experience with passive ring modulation?

i had a squarewave parade mingrod once upon a time....
my issues with it was finding the right type of carrier signal to sound good for me.

[lordgalvar]

Also, does anyone have any experience with passive ring modulation?

i had a squarewave parade mingrod once upon a time....
my issues with it was finding the right type of carrier signal to sound good for me.

Yea, that is kind of the issue without all the signal prep (preamp/attenuation). I've had problems with some too...but it has been many years since I lost that old DIY one I made...so I don't remember exactly. But that was kind of the reason for changing the way that they work from my reading (and some purists thing that that way is the only true way...I dunno...reading up on them a lot lately).

The metasonix ring mod can have those issues too (but it isn't really a ring mod...some kind of weird AM that squishes everything together in a VCA kinda stage...like putting a raptio in front of a superfuzz or something).

[crochambeau]

Passive is great, you just have to be more attentive of both signal levels. Did a shoot-out between a passive diode ring, a Moogerfooger, a Vermona & a Serge (IIRC). In terms of cutting detail, the passive and the Serge were ahead, the resulting detail/texture was different, but they were both very serviceable.

The Moogerfooger & the Vermona both sounded good, but had a sort of polish on the sound (I described as syrupy before). Far less aggressive and while I can't fault polite, they both were less suited to really running a cut through a mix. Mind you, it was a toothy environment.

[Chankgeez]

Nice, guys, thanks for the input on passive ring mods. Never tried one, but I'm interested. Interested in passive effects in general as well.

[lordgalvar]

It totally makes sense. When changing a signal to be appropriate, your tastes/signal choices are going to be more apt to the sound you want than a generalized set one I suppose. Preamp/Attenuation/Signal prep is a way to tailor specific sounds together.

The old Sick Pitch King has been the most cutting one I have used. It just doesn't get week on the highs like the Moogerfooger, Frostwave, SPK2, and a few others do. It maybe the closest to passive (just with a large preamp boost after). I only say that because when I used the trogotronic 666 as a carrier, it would cut when there was no sound, and I had to attenuate or prep it to be suitable for guitar. But I am not entirely sure...never opened it.

Andertons is based around a phase mod IC . The Carlin I think is more related to the ARP style from the odyssey (like transistor gates or something...which is probably the basic idea of the ICs?). Frequency Analyser is 1496 modulator/demodulator. The DBA space ring actually looks like two transformers and diodes...might be a good place to get close to passive (never used one though). SPK and Frostwave look like the are some kind of IC based thing...don't know which ones because I didn't want to take them apart too much (a lot packed into both)...

So many flavors of such a specific thing. haha.

[crochambeau]

The old Sick Pitch King has been the most cutting one I have used. It just doesn't get week on the highs like the Moogerfooger, Frostwave, SPK2, and a few others do. It maybe the closest to passive (just with a large preamp boost after). I only say that because when I used the trogotronic 666 as a carrier, it would cut when there was no sound, and I had to attenuate or prep it to be suitable for guitar. But I am not entirely sure...never opened it.

You describe poor rejection. In a perfectly balanced circuit your carrier or signal will reject (null out) completely, it is incredibly difficult (theoretically possible) to null a passive completely, as EVERYTHING comes into play and inductors (each winding of the transformer, of which you can consider there being six - each secondary equating to two separate windings when referenced at center tap) are notorious for being non-cooperative matches, with diodes coming in a close second. Usually it's not THAT big a deal, but I'm guessing the 666 was a pretty hot carrier.

If the DBA space ring has two transformers and a diode ring it's a safe bet that the heart of the modulator is passive, they benefit greatly from surrounding actives.

Andertons is based around a phase mod IC . The Carlin I think is more related to the ARP style from the odyssey (like transistor gates or something...which is probably the basic idea of the ICs?). Frequency Analyser is 1496 modulator/demodulator. The DBA space ring actually looks like two transformers and diodes...might be a good place to get close to passive (never used one though). SPK and Frostwave look like the are some kind of IC based thing...don't know which ones because I didn't want to take them apart too much (a lot packed into both)...

So many flavors of such a specific thing. haha.

Yeah, once you trip into the active realm there are tons of ways to go about it. The process we employ to modulate our signal was being developed by the radio weirdos for decades before someone sick in the head enough to try it out on audio came along. I think most of the discrete stuff is hemmed into being a two quadrant circuit due to difficulties pulling a true four quadrant multiplier out of discrete parts. I've read opinions that it can't be done, but have also read technical texts that indicate otherwise - BUT it is clear that the requirements to attain a fully balanced (nulling) system would be prohibitively expensive... say, several hundred dollars *labor* burden, so.. it doesn't happen much and from a business standpoint remains an "impossibility".

The ARP 4014 is, I believe, a pair of discrete two quadrant multipliers dealing with a split signal, so in a sense it gets as close to a four quadrant as can be reasonably expected, but does so as a tandem instead of single stage. I might be wrong here, I only did a very quick search to support my thoughts and it's been a few years since I was really looking into it. (the time intensity of doing it right was what stopped me at the time)

Anyway, you can buy a fucking four quadrant multiplier in a DIP these days (AD633 springs to mind) which gives you the operators on a platter while removing the ability to sculpt character that discrete designs offer, but it's essentially as quick and easy to employ as it comes, which is very attractive. It's also possible to execute the function with CMOS, really, no end to it.

How the fuck this post snowballed into that I have no idea. Hopefully it reads okay..

[lordgalvar]

Reads perfect. Thanks for clarifying some stuff! Always good information.

The poor balancing issue I described was a super hot trogotronic with weird modulation on it and it would kill the signal momentarily and then cut back in (but the results were very subpar and weak which lead me to believe it was a balance issue that the preamps couldn't address)...I was a little unclear about that...good information again.

Sorry about the confusion the ARP stuff too...the 4014 is the closest one to true and you described it perfectly. It also has AC and DC Coupling...

I was wrong on the Odyssey though...it looks like it is two CMOS XOR gates (thus being digital...I just forgot the CMOS part when I was thinking about it).

Yea, I've seen the AD633 in a lot of schematics.

I'm the the one that failed haha.

Here is a question: When I take a ring mod signal out and split it and then try to ring mod it again through the same signal, why does it cancel out? (I think I was using the direct out of the SPK back into a mixer and then it went back into the ring mod...might have been a stereo delay or something like the deluxe electric mistress too). Is that a phase thing or just outside the realm of hearing? I dunno, took out the loop and it worked fine, plugged it in, no sound (I don't think one output gets defeated either...but it was a while back that i did this).

[crochambeau]

I was wrong on the Odyssey though...it looks like it is two CMOS XOR gates (thus being digital...I just forgot the CMOS part when I was thinking about it).

Digital is kind of a grey area in terminology, I tend to think most people are talking about processing in the digital domain (in that your signal is encoded and treated as data, that data is manipulated by soft/firmware processes, and the data is then decoded into an analog signal for interface with the outside world).

In a LOT of applications of the XOR gate (or insert whatever CMOS or TTL function here) the signal handling is actually always in the analog domain, it just *tends* to swing between two points, so beyond being a square/rectangle "1 bit" representation, I tend to think of it as analog. Work in something like a 4066 which can switch/support analog signals and the digital angle becomes far less important.

I'm pretty sure that switching a 4066 or other CMOS switch open/closed at an audio frequency and then feeding another audio signal through that switch will result in a quasi-modulated signal, and that would be pure analog (in my book)

(ducks stones being thrown)

I'm the the one that failed haha.

I fail to see how you came close to failing!

When I take a ring mod signal out and split it and then try to ring mod it again through the same signal, why does it cancel out? (I think I was using the direct out of the SPK back into a mixer and then it went back into the ring mod...might have been a stereo delay or something like the deluxe electric mistress too). Is that a phase thing or just outside the realm of hearing? I dunno, took out the loop and it worked fine, plugged it in, no sound (I don't think one output gets defeated either...but it was a while back that i did this).

No sound at all? I'm guessing the act of plugging something either unlatched a function (like when you plug into an external carrier input the switch disconnects the onboard carrier), or something was shown ground. Phase cancellation will rarely (practically never) null completely. In instances where something goes into a supersonic feedback loop, you'll often lose signal power, but complete off is unlikely unless there's a thermal protect involved (and I just veered into amplifier territory, probably does not apply here).

A proper balanced modulator should give you an octave up and DC when fed the same thing in both sides, theoretically at least.