So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.



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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby Eivind August » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:25 pm

Great thread. I like your approach here. Dunno if I have that much to add right now. I tend to follow the idea DoS presents of working within limitations. Why I do that, I do not know. Seems almost counterintuitive in an age when I can buy a couple of multi-fx and have almost every sound at my disposal. Think my reasoning is that I do not want every sound, I want "my" sound, hence limiting my board to what I've over time come to see as the essentials. Not that it's constant and never will change, but the basics will always be there - not as a crutch or whatever, but as the means to achieve how I want my guitar to sound. If that makes sense. Edit: Actually, that might be trivially true. :facepalm:

Degradation and noise greatly interests me. Like, I don't listen to harsh noise music alot (ie. "pure" noise or just noise or whatever) though I do enjoy it at times, it's more the application of these "unmusical" sounds in more traditional music that interests me (seems this will be the theme of my masters thesis, so I can end up as one of those insufferable douchebags who try to intellectualize art :!!!: ). As some of you might have noticed, I have an obsession with oscillating fuzzes. The way they respond to my playing, how I with some effort can get the oscillations to do melodies, well, basically how they open a world of possibilities where you'll have to fight your way to the sounds you want. Yeah. Something like that.

Oh, and sci-fi in music is naturally something I appreciate. I love how the cats in the prog/kraut/psych bands in the sixties/seventies seemed to have an intuitive idea of oscillators = space sounds. :zen:
Last edited by Eivind August on Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby Warpsmasher » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:44 pm

How long until holographic computers are no longer sci fi? Because then there will be holographic guitars, and turntables, and effects matrixes...
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby HeavyXIII » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:10 pm

I reflected on some ideas that cropped up in this thread not long ago.

Some of it comes from working with multiple media. I started as a painter and visual artist before I even became interested in guitar, but essentially all of our devices are tools, like brushes or pens or paints or what have you. Sometimes you can make one work, although another would be more appropriate. Even still, occasionally out of place things yield unexpected results and force a change of perspective. White noise, echoes, textures, lines, colors, whatever. It's beautiful that we all experience it differently, sure we won't like every single thing we hear or see, but the world would be bland if we did, right? Criticism is no longer something to fear, but a response to someone else's perspective.

More so for me, I had a similar realization with musical arrangements than the nitty gritty of effects (for better or worse): mixing and matching riffs intermittently, to play with contrast. How changing the beat behind a riff or melody influences how you perceive it. Some of these were initially apparent when I discovered how musical modes work, I didn't have to learn MORE scales and keys, I could learn new ways to apply what I already knew.

Perhaps some of us are those douches that intellectualize art (although I think the intellectual bits strengthen us in some way or another), but I also like appreciating music and art for what it is (some guilty and not so guilty pleasures).
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby ApeLincoln » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:13 pm

D.o.S. wrote:I don't like Modular stuff because I like working within limitations, but the capabilities are definitely way far ahead of what you can do with stompboxes.


I don't think it's totally fair to think of modular as existing outside of limitations, I've spent thousands of dollars on modular and still have a relatively limited system. Yes it has near limitless possibilities in its interactions with itself but money is a legitimate limitation in modular just as much if not more so than pedals.

And really within the context of audio processing the only real benefit of modular (besides some other options in terms of manufacturers) is the ease with which those effects can be tempo synced.
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby D.o.S. » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Modulars are scaaaaaaary
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby ApeLincoln » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:48 pm

No kidding D.O.S. there is so much information out there that it really does seem endless which can be daunting.
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby K2000 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:54 pm

Modular is "cool" now (do the kids still say "cool"?) but so what? There's no guitars involved there, and I am definitely interested in the KLANG and SCREE that guitars excel at. I'm old enough to remember when perfectly good analog synths were rapidly abandoned in favor of the new big thing (digital synths) and I'm not impressed by today's youngsters who have superiority complexes because they abandoned stomp technology for analog synths and modular setups that can seemingly only do BLOOP-BLEEP.

As far as gear, I love the Seppuku Kassette (V.1) and how it distorts time and the concept of a consistent pitch. Noise Ensemble gets there as well, with added dirt. (I like them "minus the original note" if you catch my drift).
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby Ugly Nora » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:21 pm

I like to think of myself as more of a sound designer than a guitarist or a musician . In fact those are terms that I actively disassociate with myself when confronted with them. I recall this conversation with my girlfriend on our first date:

Her: "You play guitar, right?"
Me: "Well, I have a guitar"
Her: "What kind of music do you play"
Me: " I just make noise"
Her: "<<laughs>> Seriously, what kind of music do you play"
Me: "Seriously, I just make noise"

I'm fascinated by the purity of sound without context - where the sound itself is the final product, as opposed to just an ingredient in a melody or rhythm. Obviously pedals are invaluable to that end.
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby rfurtkamp » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:02 am

I could care less about the thought process behind the devices, or what they look like.

I want the end result and to be able to control it to some respect after learning to lasso a bronco and pray.

I am not scared of different platforms nor care about analog/digital/whatever.

If it sounds good, it is good.

I love note decay and crackling breakup and things that don't sound like guitar. But I like guitar that sounds like guitar too.

And parallel processing gone awry.

But I'm not young and have done this stuff a LONG time.
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby Invisible Man » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:42 am

Gone Fission wrote:I dunno, modular has an appeal, but: putting aside that component parts in analog domain may do some things better, it's not like you couldn't do the same things in PD or MAX, including "patching" and interconnectivity. In a way, modular is the caveman version of building you electronic music processing from the circuit component level. Some of the most exciting modular stuff is actually about injecting DSP back into the component level building blocks--it's a little like steampunk in its injection of more high or new tech into older technology systems.

The thing about modular, though, is it's more flexible than most DSP processing boxes. Only a few boxes give you enough rope to hang yourself and get into serious abuse and/or trouble. Modeling pedals are curated. Modular isn't curated. Non-curated formats tend to have high learning curves, though, whether modular, DSP hardware, of in the computer.


This is one of the things I was thinking about when I posted. I went down to visit my bro in the Computer Science department (and my bro in the Math department) if they have any resources for doing some entry level programming. I was thinking of taking massive quantities of data and feeding them into self-authored programs for some algorithmic music. Something like census data, but translated into sound. We're working on finding some stuff.

Weird that you bring up steampunk, too. That's such a bizarre and interesting eruption (I just did a session on retrofuturism in the class I mentioned); not sure how to make sense of it in any useful way. But it is a blast to live in that world a little.

I know that if I dive in, I'm not coming back for a while. And enough of my life is spent in front of a computer already...but still, it seems to be the only way forward.
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby D.o.S. » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:00 am

Have you checked out Pure Data?
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby Invisible Man » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:22 pm

Eivind August wrote:Great thread. I like your approach here. Dunno if I have that much to add right now. I tend to follow the idea DoS presents of working within limitations. Why I do that, I do not know. Seems almost counterintuitive in an age when I can buy a couple of multi-fx and have almost every sound at my disposal. Think my reasoning is that I do not want every sound, I want "my" sound, hence limiting my board to what I've over time come to see as the essentials. Not that it's constant and never will change, but the basics will always be there - not as a crutch or whatever, but as the means to achieve how I want my guitar to sound. If that makes sense. Edit: Actually, that might be trivially true. :facepalm:

Degradation and noise greatly interests me. Like, I don't listen to harsh noise music alot (ie. "pure" noise or just noise or whatever) though I do enjoy it at times, it's more the application of these "unmusical" sounds in more traditional music that interests me (seems this will be the theme of my masters thesis, so I can end up as one of those insufferable douchebags who try to intellectualize art :!!!: ). As some of you might have noticed, I have an obsession with oscillating fuzzes. The way they respond to my playing, how I with some effort can get the oscillations to do melodies, well, basically how they open a world of possibilities where you'll have to fight your way to the sounds you want. Yeah. Something like that.

Oh, and sci-fi in music is naturally something I appreciate. I love how the cats in the prog/kraut/psych bands in the sixties/seventies seemed to have an intuitive idea of oscillators = space sounds. :zen:


The power of the limited palette. I remember the Brians in Lightning Bolt making a big deal out of that in their tour documentary. As a multi-instrumentalist, I think about this all the time. It's probably why I try to collect so many versatile tools. It's just me making the music, so I know it's kind of limited already. I don't want to further limit it by not having at hand the thing I'd need to accomplish something.

You should talk more about your thesis. Love to hear what you mean by all this. It sounds like--and I mean this in all seriousness--you're getting close to that weird mystical moment that so many of us have once in a while. It's the thing we keep chasing, you know? When you just do something, and zone out, and then realize it's been forty five minutes and your daughters are crying and your wife is ready to kill you and the dog is howling and you just didn't notice because holy shit that detuned oscillation just resonatedinyourmotherfuckingsoulamirite?

I had a breakthrough in my dissertation when I discovered ray Kurzweil's insane ideas about technological singularity. Though synthesizers weren't the subject of my research, the possibilities for thinking about this other problem I'd been working on immediately blossomed. And that conversation came out of talking to a colleague about pedals. So, holy shit.

As for SF: oscillation/oscillators just kill me, because it's basically the sound of electricity. It's not modeled on anything. And it sounds like power. I wake up early every single day so I can go down to the basement and (quietly) get my Moog filter oscillating into a bass amp. Incredibly stimulating. I often don't even pick up a guitar/bass; I just let noises happen.

And don't worry about being an insufferable douche. It's okay to have thoughts...even if you might get blowback. People don't have to read the thread. I'm definitely not trying to be pretentious about any of this, or to pretend there's something happening here that isn't. I just wanted to put words to my thoughts on this, and to see if there's anyone else thinking on this stuff.
Last edited by Invisible Man on Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby D.o.S. » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:31 pm

Kurzweil's a really trippy read, for sure.

In regards to the algorithmic music, this piece is the reason I ask about PD:
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UglyCasanova wrote: It's not the expensive programs you use, it's the way you click and drag.


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IT'S THE ENNNND OF THE WORRRLD AS WE KNOW IT
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby Invisible Man » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:32 pm

HeavyXIII wrote:Some of it comes from working with multiple media. I started as a painter and visual artist before I even became interested in guitar, but essentially all of our devices are tools, like brushes or pens or paints or what have you.

More so for me, I had a similar realization with musical arrangements than the nitty gritty of effects (for better or worse): mixing and matching riffs intermittently, to play with contrast. How changing the beat behind a riff or melody influences how you perceive it. Some of these were initially apparent when I discovered how musical modes work, I didn't have to learn MORE scales and keys, I could learn new ways to apply what I already knew.

Perhaps some of us are those douches that intellectualize art (although I think the intellectual bits strengthen us in some way or another), but I also like appreciating music and art for what it is (some guilty and not so guilty pleasures).


Multimedia is super important. People are starting to call this "idea sex," which is strange. It just sounds like having influences outside the range of the stuff that you're producing. People say my music sounds like Battles, for example, but I don't really listen to a lot of Battles (I do love them, though). I get ideas from places that are pretty far away from the noise I make, and usually pretty far away from "music" altogether.

Changing the underlay is my jam. That's a huge part of making music interesting (at least to me). Shift the riff 1/16 note forward, or something. We talk about modulation in terms of swirly effects, but you can also use that idea to modulate keys, tempos, rhythms, harmonies, stressed notes, whatever.

And, I'll say again: it is inevitable, I think, that people will think this whole idea is overwrought. Just wanted to float this out there. Also, this is what I do for a living (at some level), so I feel a little justified in doing it. I think that talking about music or art in a way beyond the surface-level of "rad fuzz pedal" is always viewed with suspicion, probably because so many assholes have come before with their scarves and thick-rimmed glasses and looked down their nose at others for not "getting it." That's definitely not me...I won't apologize for where I come from, but, despite my current station in life, I grew up with jack shit on 8 Mile road in Detroit. I come by this shit as honestly as anyone, and had to pull myself out of some gaping holes to get where I am now. So I'm with you: we can have our cake (intellectual bullshitting) and eat it, too (guilty pleasure/radcore/"rad fuzz pedal").
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Re: So I guess pedals are the new forward guard.

Postby Invisible Man » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:33 pm

ApeLincoln wrote:
D.o.S. wrote:I don't like Modular stuff because I like working within limitations, but the capabilities are definitely way far ahead of what you can do with stompboxes.
And really within the context of audio processing the only real benefit of modular (besides some other options in terms of manufacturers) is the ease with which those effects can be tempo synced.


This is why I've gone nuts on MIDI for my pedals.
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